meet me downtown tonight, and wear that green sweater

[lizzytysh]

I, too, loved this poem.

I, too, questioned... "Why the sins? What sins? Is he paying for them to get a motel room? If so, she'd better be looking at him in some way reminiscent of the way she used to." Or, is drinking their sin? If so, why so heavy-handed... are they going to get sloshed? If so, was she barely able to see him at all, when she looked, in the old days? And if he's going to pay for some of their sins, which ones is she going to pay for? It created so many, unrelated, unnecessary, and diverting questions.

I, particularly, liked
"but, oh the shape of you
when you walk through that door"
... because without its being specific, it universalized it. Anyone could imagine their own lost love coming through that door. It also very effectively gave the image of a bar, generally dark, wherein you can recognize someone as being who they are, simply by their 'shape' before any light hits their face or their hair or their clothing. I recall that very moment, myself, in waiting for someone and recognizing them with that most minimal of visual information... and feeling that excitement. It also gave me space, as I read the poem, to fill in just what that shape was... I imagined a very curvy woman, wearing a tight, green sweater.

On the "you know the one," in some kind of way I wanted the word green repeated... perhaps, just "the green one" ~ that, for me, would have created a kind of wistfulness in the ending... more than "you know the one" happened to... maybe because it is weak? I'm not sure that's it.

I agree on the points made by Aaron regarding quoting Tom Waits's song... even though it does relate to clothing and its colour. It seemed out of sync to introduce him into the discussion/critiques/comments. And, yes, again; if writers here are to be compared against the greatest elsewhere, well... where better to start than with Leonard? I don't recall being given specifics about Annie's eyes... but they sure impacted me.

"FOR ANNE" -- The Spice-Box of Earth; Selected Poems 1956-1968; Stranger Music

"With Annie gone, / whose eyes to compare / With the morning sun? / Not that I did compare, / But I do compare / Now that she's gone."

http://www.webheights.net/cohenconcorda ... oranne.htm - 1k - 2002-10-28

Thanks, Pinata. I've just now read your poem and I sure understand the desire for the return of that look. Thanks for generalizing and telling, instead of showing. The look in my mind's eye is likely quite different from that in yours, and I was able to see the one in mine. Perhaps, selfishness gets in the way of great critiqueing .


~ Lizzy

[mat james]

This is excellent.
The economy, the universality, the prosody, the understated pathos...
It's exactly what I hope to see when reading poetry - but rarely do.
Nice work.
Thanks,
Aaron

I'm with you Aaron. I loved it.
I tend to read it as rather universal too, in the sense that it could also be hetero or homo-erotic. We assume that the author is a male writing about a female, but I wondered if the poem was deliberately gender non-specific.
It works either way.

It is such a good poem.
It is simple, moody and takes us instantly to the door, the moment and the sigh.
It is a snap-shot, more than a movie.

The punctuation is a little confusing. Maybe I'm outa touch?

MatbbgJ

[3010530027]

I, too, loved this poem.

I, particularly, liked
"but, oh the shape of you
when you walk through that door"

On the "you know the one," in some kind of way I wanted the word green repeated... perhaps, just "the green one" ~ that, for me, would have created a kind of wistfulness in the ending... more than "you know the one" happened to... maybe because it is weak? I'm not sure that's it.

I agree on the points made by Aaron regarding quoting Tom Waits's song... even though it does relate to clothing and its colour. It seemed out of sync to introduce him into the discussion/critiques/comments. And, yes, again; if writers here are to be compared against the greatest elsewhere, well... where better to start than with Leonard? I don't recall being given specifics about Annie's eyes... but they sure impacted me.


Thanks, Pinata. I've just now read your poem and I sure understand the desire for the return of that look. Thanks for generalizing and telling, instead of showing. The look in my mind's eye is likely quite different from that in yours, and I was able to see the one in mine. Perhaps, selfishness gets in the way of great critiqueing .


~ Lizzy

Lizzy, thanks for the weirdest critique I have ever read! Thanks for declaring your praise for "generalizing and telling" , it says it all about your knowledge of writing. I don't think you should proscribe which great artists are quoted as examples, it doesn't have to be Leonard- we are not all dizzy teenagers any more you know ! Sorry to ph, after all I never thought your poem was that bad, but every time someone quotes "but, oh the shape of you", it really gets worse.

Alice

"I am not a number"

[lizzytysh]

Oh, you're welcome , Numbered Alice. I wouldn't claim it to be a critique to begin with; have never done it yet here, so no reason I can see to start now. I do, however, say what I like and why I like it. That's enough for me and my tastes don't require rules. If anyone [including the writer] gets anything out of it, all the better.

For me, personally, "the shape of you" has worked in my real life in more than one situation. It's what I was able to recognize from a distance or in a crowd. It's through what means that person's 'power' in my life dominated the surroundings. Sometimes, the doorway, where they seemed to fill it; another time the bridge, where their shape continued to get closer until we met and kissed; still others in chance encounters on a road or sidewalk or outdoors or in a crowded room [a phrase that has become cliched thanks to "Some Enchanted Evening" ]. The shape is what I recognized first and at that point, the attendant emotions began to register. It's also worked in the reverse, where the emotions may have been fear and dread, with some others I've known. I'm sorry the phrase is so painful for you and getting worse, but I don't recall ever having heard it in this context... or is it just that it's egregious having been used here, and then referenced in responses?

It would be nice, Numbered Alice, if you wouldn't presume that I know nothing of writing because I'm not subscribing to "showing not telling" in this particular instance. I don't claim to be a writer and I'm certainly no poet and don't claim to "know about" either one, I only know what I like/dislike and why... and sometimes actually hit on something 'correctly;' however, "show don't tell" is amongst the most elementary of writing rules.

As you appear to have chosen to use Waits as your be-all, end-all example [at least, right or wrong, that's how it was presented], it certainly suited me to use a more succinct, brief, loving, and lovely poem by Leonard, without qualifying me as a dizzy teenager ... though I do reserve my right to be one when I choose .

I like the point you've made, Mat, about its being either male or female, hetero or homo, though the hetero male-to-female is presumed.

I hope to enjoy your professional critiques in the future, Numbered Alice. Kindness and a certain humility always work for me when I read those things. No one knows everything when it comes to another's writing. There will always be still another perspective. It comes with the numbers of us.

Thanks for your exclamation!


~ Lizzy

[ladydi]

.

[Simon Says]

Hi, Simon here. what a fun thread! I was wondering if Pinata Heart was actually my ex-boyfriend! (crosses fingers and hopes this is a Gay-Friendly community!)

As to the poem, well done PH for the original. I do think that Alice's revision has many striking ideas. The rhythm of her second verse is excellent and the changed ending brings a poignancy that was missing from the original.

There's no doubt which is more evocative and moving. If you read PH

"and don't forget about that sweater.
you know the one."

and then compare with

"and we stumble out to a younger sky
don't forget your sweater.
the reason why"


I'm afraid the former reminds me of my mother, the revision of my lover!

I particularly loved the expression "younger sky". In Alice's first verse I also enjoyed the clever use of the "off the shoulders"

I think one of the dangers of critiquing poetry is that sometimes people get set in camps and forget to pay attention to the words.

For my 2c Lizzie is certainly allowed to like "telling" more than "showing" , sometimes readers prefer prompts for their own imagery rather than having the imagery written for them. But that's less to do with poetry and more to do with a particular reader's needs. Anyway, room for all is what I say. Well done ph for the idea and well done Alice for the excellent writing

Simon

LC Fan(atic)

[lizzytysh]

Hi Simon ~

Welcome. Lovely of you to join, so as to join this particular discussion .

Lizzie is certainly allowed to like "telling" more than "showing" , sometimes readers prefer prompts for their own imagery rather than having the imagery written for them.

... and, just for the record on that issue, please note that my comment was not a generality, but a specific as related to this particular use of 'telling.' By no means a general preference for me, thanks.

I'll have to read Alice's revisions to comment, but simply reading your quoting out of context of her whole, I'm wondering "the reason why" for what? Their relationship and this encounter involved the green sweater, for sure, but I don't see it as the reason why... and it seemed to me in the original reading to be her primary piece of clothing on top. Did she disrobe in the bar? Or, did we switch gears in time within three lines? Did they stumble out before she arrived... for me, those new, three lines obfuscate. Obtuse, I know .

I'm also wondering why it's a "younger" sky? Did memories from the past imbue it with its own renewed youth? Hmm.

"For real writing . . . " oooooh, slam-dunk ~ it all seems real to me.


~ Lizzy

[Simon Says]

Simon Says lots of things but I can't actually speak for Alice! FWIW my own interpretation of "younger sky" is exactly what you suggested. He got his look and whoosh, back they went in time. First Love, or refound Love, the world looks different and the change of scene from Bar to the outside, it all fits. Sorry, I didn't realise you hadn't read Alice's revision. I took it for granted you did as you were posting to each other about the original and you were critical of her opinions.

All the Best

Simon

[lizzytysh]

Hi Simon ~

I'm very curious what about this particular thread so drew you in as to prompt you to join the Forum and join the discussion, in favour of Alice's revisions. It seems quite purpose oriented.

Now I've found and read the revision and, for me, it seems to be working too hard to 'make it work' and I prefer the original... leaving out some details and such. It flows more naturally.

The revision creates more questions. Why would the woman dance through the door?

As opposed to the man being interpreted as a sap, Alice has turned him to being quite pedantic ~ "You must . . . "? In its original, it came through as more melancholy and wistful... and there's nothing at all wrong with a man being that, particularly in poetry that speaks of longing.

I'm not acquainted with too many men who would say, "For Heaven's sake... ," though I could name a number of women. Any chance that you and Alice are quite acquainted? And "it will cost you . . . " ~ what? This guy's a bully, coming at her with threats and they haven't even met again, yet? And he's hoping for the same old look? With this revision, it's seeming as though she had good reason to leave in the first place; she got tired of being ordered around, and he'll be lucky if she agrees to meet him anywhere.

When Pinata said, "you'll look at me / the way you used to," it's clear that he's imagining the dream outcome. It's overkill to use the phrase "dream ending."

I don't have time to continue commenting on the revision, but as for me, I prefer the original. It's more 'Zen' in its approach and quite fitting for a man longing to see and emotionally connect with his old love.


~ Lizzy

[Simon Says]

Hi Lizzie, there's always a first thread. I guess if it interests you then it might be the spur to joining. I found this place during the NY ticket hunt but this was my first post. I don't know Alice and I'm not used to people undermining opinion by hinting all sorts of foul play- not the spirit of Leonard Cohen at all. Actually, FYI, I was not impressed with Alice's comment on song lyrics somewhere else on this Forum. I hope I am not joining a place of suspicion and intrigue, I'm after a place of love and harmony!

All the Best

Simon

[lizzytysh]

I hope I am not joining a place of suspicion and intrigue, I'm after a place of love and harmony!

Oh, that's good, then, Simon... you're in luck . My apologies to you for any offense taken. You're right that, of course, there's always a first. There was a curious timing going on, when Alice joined and rewrote this poem, and when you joined and commented on it. I didn't find Alice's revisions to be excellent writing, so it seemed you may have joined, as some do, as an alternate identity, so as to lend support. If I was wrong in that 'suspicion,' then I was wrong. It wouldn't be the first time I was right in it, nor wrong in it. Actually, I'm usually the last to suspect alternates.

As for Alice, I disagree with her opinions, but I was critical of her approach to commenting on the original poem, as well as the merit [or lack, thereof ] of my own comments. Did you happen to comment on your disagreement of her comment, elsewhere? Yes, I see that you did.

Of course, there's plenty of intrigue here. Suspicion, not so much; however, it does surface from time to time, which you'll see and understand, if you stick around. Overall, we're a pretty friendly bunch.

And, so far as I've been able to assess, we're a Gay-Friendly community.

Can you explain to me why the line "the reason why" is part of what makes Alice's ending more evocative and moving? I'm just left with a big question mark when I read it. If all he wanted to see was the sweater, the drinks, the look, nor the sky would have been necessary. It seems to me that the sweater plays a supporting actor's part; but the lead actor... the person coming through the door [and not necessarily dancing through it... perhaps, coming with a feeling of trepidation] and the memories entwined, of which the look is part, are the reason why. Perhaps, the green sweater was simply a favourite of the writer's; maybe even related to the first time they met or a particularly fond experience, but still not what one might consider "the reason."

One of the things I really like about this poem is that six people connected with it and its original feeling and intention... some [including yourself ], specifically in terms of a personal, former lover, who might have 'written' it themselves or might have it 'written' for them. Aren't there so many forms of poetry, some love one kind and have no use for another, and so on; tastes and styles and trends change, as well. Still, though I'm not absolute on this, it seems to me that the 'purpose' of poetry is to connect... with oneself or with another or, by extension, many others... allowing them to connect with themselves or with another... or to G~d or the One or whatever other spiritual concept one abides by. That's not to say that everything written in shorter lines is poetry, of course.

It seems to me still, though, that "the needs" [including me, as you originally suggested] of most readers is to connect... with other people, with self, with G~d, with the One. So, I feel this "need of the reader" does have to do with poetry, not just to the reader's needs. I brought out Leonard's poem because had he done more than simply refer to Annie's eyes, by describing them in detail, I wouldn't have been able to imagine my own love's eyes so easily. The impact of those eyes, even retroactively, is what made the difference. Yet, it needed to only be briefly referenced. That's not to say that this poem equates to Leonard's; yet, it sure did hit home effectively with more than just the writer.

Again, Welcome .


~ Lizzy

[piñata heart]

Wow, what a thread! There’s just too much to address here, but I’ll cover what I feel I should.

First, and foremost, I have no interest in revising the poem. This is how I write and I don’t question it. When it comes to writing and writers, my influences mainly come from the gutter. To me, that is where real beauty lies. My approach has always been to describe a scene, be direct, and leave it as open as possible for the reader to interpret as he/she sees fit. I have little concern for structure and form.

Lizzie, you’re sweeter than angel food and I thank you most of all for your comments. We seem to see eye to eye on these types of things and it’s nice to hear that you like being given all that room to move around in. I try to write in a universal tone. I do that with my songs too. I feel it enables the reader/listener to make of it what they want and relate to it in their own way.

And to everyone else, thanks a million for your input as well. It got a little hot in here…and that’s a good thing. I have to say, what surprised me most were the comments wondering if I were their significant other in some shape or form. I can imagine someone reading it and relating to the waiting man (and it is a man), but I never considered that some readers would relate to the arriving woman. It really opened my eyes, and I thank you for that.

I don’t want to prattle on and on, but if there are other things you’d like me to address here I will. Thanks again from the bottom of my grubby little heart.

-ph

[aaronblack]

Wow - this thread got busy!

Alice, I guess what irked me most about your review was that "real writing" shot...it seemed very dismissive of Leonard Cohen's writing.

That, and what appeared to be a condescending tone, not backed up by anything that struck me as truly insightful; it seemed you were reviewing from a checklist: Telling not showing, minus 10 points...


Although your re-write does have some nice images, and I rather like your insertion of a rhyming couplet in the midst of free verse (though that "'cos" is jarringly out of rhythm), I didn't find your version nearly as good as the original.

Yours was susceptible to some of your own criticisms ("For heaven's sake"....?) ("If my dream survives.") - both weak cliches that add little or nothing; your disclaimer indicates you were aware of the weakness of the latter.

(I have to admit that the "pay for our sins" seemed the weakest part of the original, but it didn't detract much for me, and it's surely better than "For Heaven's sake.")

Then we have to add some other criticisms - there's a grammar problem with "it will cost you" - it doesn't make sense either closing the thought "if I buy every drink" nor is it ever completed, at least not in any grammatically correct way: "it will cost you, for old times' sake, just look at me once..."

Your ending trivializes the whole poem - the green sweater isn't the reason for anything - just a touchstone that calls to mind a wealth of feelings and memories.

Also, you've lost the brevity of the original - and brevity is, to some extent, the soul of poetry. That's why "Oh, the shape of you" and especially "You know the one." are such excellent lines; they say a lot in a just a few words, and they help capture a feeling that will be familiar to most people who have ridden the love roller coaster a few times - the silhouette in the doorway that shakes you up - the shared awareness of a past in which both know the score despite any residual longing...

Worse, you've taken a poem that captures a sense of longing and loss from a mature and wistful viewpoint, and turned it into a caricature of a clod who doesn't even realize that the object of his longing is no longer attainable. (His or her, as the case may be... )

I do give you credit for putting your own work on the line, even if it wasn't entirely your work - not based on your own original idea.

However, I also think you should moderate your tone, and be a little careful about how you phrase your criticisms - of course your "real writing" comment reads as a slap in the face to Leonard Cohen's writing, in this context, and you should have realized that.

Actually, as the thread progressed, I think your tone did become less offensive - thank you for that.


-Aaron

[3010530027]

To ph who said "First, and foremost, I have no interest in revising the poem."- oh dear, Sister. You won't ever improve if you are so precious/arrogant.

To Aaaron and Lizzie who both pointed to weaknesses in my revision- both of you made some good points on my sense and my structure. Thanks. It was just a quick rework nothing more. In some ways I regret doing it as it is ph's story which means something to him/her (did I miss the gender or is it still some studied enigma game?)

Anyway, I'll post one of my own soon. I can't shift on "Oh, the shape of you" and "You know the one." they remain for me exceptionally weak. It's not a points system, Aaron the telling here was just warm platitudes to me.

By the way, I have no idea how you thought my reference to Tom Waits' "real writing" meant I didn't rate Leonard as well. That's a bizarre reading (but if I did say something carelessly to that effect 1000 apologies deep)


Anyway, I'll post one of my own soon. I don't care if anyone revises it or criticises it, only words that's all it is

Alice

PS Aaron, I have now found my "real writing" comment on the earlier post and you are definitely mad! I chose that example because of the clothing (red shoes/green sweater). The idea that a fan's comment anyway could be a "slap in the face" to someone of Leonard's talent is Grandiose beyond sanity! I think if he ever read your commnet he would laugh (albeit in a gentle and classy way!)

"I am not a number"

[lizzytysh]

Okay, Alice, I'll give you a "You know the one," and I'll take the "Oh, the shape of you"... I love the non-descript of the latter, but would prefer a different last line, though I've no idea what it might be.

On the Tom Waits comment about "real writing," what I thought was being contrasted was Tom's with ph's... the former real, the latter not. I never read Leonard into it, though I did summon a poem of Leonard's to include in my own response.

Ph ~ I loved the simplicity [noted by Aaron] and natural flow of your poem. It was simple, sweet, and sincere... with air for everyone to breathe. The 'revision' that Alice did just felt contrived and cluttered to me. I remember someone, who used to post their poetry here, who was criticized for leaving the reader zero room for identification, involvement, or breathing. The poems were locked up tight from all angles with that person's perspective. I felt the criticism was sometimes a broad brush of the reality, but the point had merit. I flowed into and then out of yours... it was like a short story in just a few lines. Thanks for your compliments. I've been holding and defending the fort on my/our perspective for years here . It's simply how I feel. Glad to have a compadre in that... even though we may be in the minority .

I'm seriously interested in reading your own piece, Alice, though I know you know to expect nothing more than a weird 'critique' ~ that's just the nature of mine, and they likely won't change now... until I at least take a poetry class and then I can give my Poetry 101 feedback .


~ Lizzy