"I forget to pray for the angels"...(A question about this)

[yopietro]

"I forget to pray for the angels and then the angels forget to pray for us."

I have always been tremendously moved by this line. And I've been able to relate to it on a personal level about loving to live with a woman but having that relationship come at the expense of my spirituality.

ANYHOW...this is my question: I've noticed that Leonard sings "I forget to pray FOR the angels." Not "I forget to pray "TO" the angels."

Can somehow who knows a thing or two about angels please shine some light on this for me? If we are praying for the angels, it seems that we are praying not out of a sense that the angels will help us with protection, guidance, blessings, whatnot...but out of a sense that our prayers are needed by angels and will actually serve or help them. So what is the relationship between people and angels?

I would greatly appreciate if people with better understandings of this subject matter could weigh in with their thoughts on this.

Thanks!

[Steven]

Yopietro,

Judaism recognizes angels, but doesn't encourage a praying to them (I don't
believe it does), as direct access to God is the normative direction of prayer.
Could be that L.C.was reflecting this with his lyric. Praying for angels,
presumably beneficent ones, would be an expression of appreciation, though
not a standard practice, or one that I've heard of, in Judaism, either. (There
are prayers that recognize angels, the "Malochim.") In any case, the
sentiment of recognition of and appreciation for spiritual protectors works
nicely in the song. I've also been moved by the line. Relationships can be spiritually fulfilling or devastating (and gradations of either). I wish you the former. There's a
biblical statement that goes something like: "Guard your heart for out of it
flow the issues of life." Close relationships can put lots on the line, for better
or worse. I don't know if angels need our prayers. Nor God for that matter. Some people
say we pray for our benefit, because it works towards fulfillment of our
needs. Disclaimer: My understanding of theology isn't all that great.

[hydriot]

Of course we have to pray for the angels, because in an increasingly atheistic world they are an endangered species. Neither a god nor angels can continue to exist once we cease to believe. That's why gods are so desperate to have worshippers (you wouldn't think an omnipotent deity would really need them, would you?)

[yopietro]

Yopietro,

Judaism recognizes angels, but doesn't encourage a praying to them (I don't
believe it does), as direct access to God is the normative direction of prayer.
Could be that L.C.was reflecting this with his lyric. Praying for angels,
presumably beneficent ones, would be an expression of appreciation, though
not a standard practice, or one that I've heard of, in Judaism, either. (There
are prayers that recognize angels, the "Malochim.") In any case, the
sentiment of recognition of and appreciation for spiritual protectors works
nicely in the song. I've also been moved by the line. Relationships can be spiritually fulfilling or devastating (and gradations of either). I wish you the former. There's a
biblical statement that goes something like: "Guard your heart for out of it
flow the issues of life." Close relationships can put lots on the line, for better
or worse. I don't know if angels need our prayers. Nor God for that matter. Some people
say we pray for our benefit, because it works towards fulfillment of our
needs. Disclaimer: My understanding of theology isn't all that great.

Thank you Steven! I am actually Jewish myself and am really curious about this subject. I just think it's a beautiful sentiment that somehow our prayers can serve angels that are out there and that it may be a "we scratch their backs, they scratch ours," as then they don't forget to pray for us.

And thanks for the well-wishes. I've had the spiritually depleting relationships and they don't work out, no matter how compelling. Much better to have the spiritually nourishing ones!

[Eskimo]

....That's why gods are so desperate to have worshippers (you wouldn't think an omnipotent deity would really need them, would you?)

When you spread out your hands,
I will hide my eyes from you;
even though you make many prayers,
I will not listen;
your hands are full of blood.
Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean;
remove the evil of your deeds from before my eyes;
cease to do evil,
learn to do good;
seek justice,
correct oppression;
bring justice to the fatherless,
plead the widow's cause

That passage from Isaiah (1:15-17) is often cited as an important one in terms of the evolution of the concept of gods who needed worship to a God who wanted compassion rather than sacrifice - a God whom Isaiah also tells us says "I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats" and who wants "no more vain oblations".

Regarding prayer, Augustine in "On the Lord's Sermon on the Mount" suggests that it is us not God that prayer really benefits:

"But again one might ask whether we are to pray by words or deeds and what need there is for prayer, if God already knows what we need. But it is because the act of prayer clarifies and purges our heart and makes it more capable of receiving the divine gifts that are poured out for us in the spirit. God does not give heed to the ambitiousness of our prayers, because He is always ready to give to us his light, not a visible light but an intellectual and spiritual one: but we are not always ready to receive it when we turn to other things out of a desire for the temporal. For in prayer there occurs a turning of the heart to He who is always ready to give if we will but take what He gives: and in that turning is the purification of the inner eye when the things we crave in the temporal world are shut out; so that the vision of the pure heart can bear the pure light that shines divinely without setting or wavering: and not only bear it, but abide in it; not only without difficulty, but even with unspeakable joy, with which the blessed life is truly and genuinely brought to fulfillment."

Augustine, On the Lord's Sermon on the Mount 2.3.14

[Steven]

Hi Eskimo,

Very nice comparisons in your post. There's a song lyric that comes to mind:
"I have finally come to dwell within the presence of the Lord." And spiritual practitioners may arrive at feeling that they are in that presence when moving beyond the surface of lip service prayer and mechinations of ritual and accompanied by an intentionality
of certain kinds of behaviors. I'll leave it at that. Good post, there, Eskimo.

[lisz]

My interpretation is less about angels and god, and more about being grateful and giving and receiving.

[bigb]

Why do we need to pray for the angels?
According to scripture, Angels have succumbed to the worldly temptations of flesh.
We pray for their moral strength.

In the Book Of Enoch God sent a legion of angels (the Grigori) to earth in order to watch over man.
These angels taught man many things which God had forbidden man to learn.
Things such as magic herbs, astrology, divination and sorcery.

Genesis 6:4 points out that "the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them".
The resulting half-breeds were named the Nephilim.

So the Grigori led greatly debauched lives, neglecting their heavenly duties.
Thus greatly angered God banished the "fallen" from heaven.

Chief of the Grigori are Archangels:
Uriel, Raphael, Raguel, Michael, Zerachiel, Gabriel, and Remiel

All Archangel names (except two) end with the "el" suffix.
"El" meaning "in God" and the first half of the name meaning what each individual Angel specializes in.

[Inna]

bigb welcome to the forum first of all! I didn't know about this. Thank you for the interesting and informative contribution to this thread.

[ChildhoodDavid]

The Jewish apocryphal Book of Enoch, chapter 15:1:

"And go, say to the watchers of heaven, who have sent thee, that thou shouldst petition for them: ‘Ye should petition for men, and not men for you.'"