We are not convinced
Lightning,
You would have to analyze the work of each artist on your list to see how the work they produced while under the influence compares to the work produced while not under the influence.
Without such a comparison, it is just what you said: coincidence.
(By the way, coincidence is not magic. Magic, or superstition, is where people try to find cause and effect relationships between events, when those relationships aren't there.)
Hermitage
You would have to analyze the work of each artist on your list to see how the work they produced while under the influence compares to the work produced while not under the influence.
Without such a comparison, it is just what you said: coincidence.
(By the way, coincidence is not magic. Magic, or superstition, is where people try to find cause and effect relationships between events, when those relationships aren't there.)
Hermitage
I hope I can ferret my way through expressing what I want to say. My feeling on the link between drugs and alcohol, and the artistic soul, which manifests in artistic works is this [not absolute, cut-and-dried, but generally speaking]: Artistic, creative people tend to have higher, greater sensitivities than the general population. They are tuning in to the energy levels and realities that are both above and below the norm.
Along with this sensitivity comes [with some], perhaps, the sensitivity and vulnerability to the ongoing forces of daily life and the world we live in, which many others are able to more easily slough off. It's as though their greatest asset is also their greatest liability [enemy]. If their coping mechanisms are not as they need to be for this situation [with some the increased sensitivity and lack of coping mechanisms coming hand-in-hand], overindulgence and addiction result. The drugs and alcohol at least offer an anaesthetizing effect for all they are feeling. Some remain with their crutch and become addicted, even destroyed by it.
I've worked in three, different, drug treatment centers, and it was always remarkable how much talent there was, in the resident population, that emerged after they truly 'dried out' and were healing. These people had become so immersed in drugs/alcohol, that 'art' in their lives had completely disappeared. Some of the drugs required 24/7 commitment to obtaining them. However, once again able to express themselves in healthy ways, their artistic side began to emerge [again for some, for the first time for others]. For some, once parted from their drug of choice, their sensitivity has been able to be effectively channeled into creative endeavours, with amazing results. In the centers where I've worked, creative expression has been a major component of treatment.
There is the belief by some that alcoholics/drug addicts, in general, tend to be more sensitive types to begin with, and turn to alcohol for their 'coping skills.' I'm not presenting this 'analysis' as the final, absolute truth; however, simply from what I've observed, it's something I've come to believe. There are exceptions of all kinds to it. However, it is something for others perhaps to, perhaps, consider.
~ Elizabeth
Along with this sensitivity comes [with some], perhaps, the sensitivity and vulnerability to the ongoing forces of daily life and the world we live in, which many others are able to more easily slough off. It's as though their greatest asset is also their greatest liability [enemy]. If their coping mechanisms are not as they need to be for this situation [with some the increased sensitivity and lack of coping mechanisms coming hand-in-hand], overindulgence and addiction result. The drugs and alcohol at least offer an anaesthetizing effect for all they are feeling. Some remain with their crutch and become addicted, even destroyed by it.
I've worked in three, different, drug treatment centers, and it was always remarkable how much talent there was, in the resident population, that emerged after they truly 'dried out' and were healing. These people had become so immersed in drugs/alcohol, that 'art' in their lives had completely disappeared. Some of the drugs required 24/7 commitment to obtaining them. However, once again able to express themselves in healthy ways, their artistic side began to emerge [again for some, for the first time for others]. For some, once parted from their drug of choice, their sensitivity has been able to be effectively channeled into creative endeavours, with amazing results. In the centers where I've worked, creative expression has been a major component of treatment.
There is the belief by some that alcoholics/drug addicts, in general, tend to be more sensitive types to begin with, and turn to alcohol for their 'coping skills.' I'm not presenting this 'analysis' as the final, absolute truth; however, simply from what I've observed, it's something I've come to believe. There are exceptions of all kinds to it. However, it is something for others perhaps to, perhaps, consider.
~ Elizabeth
Kush and Lightning,
You two should address each other on this thread! Kush, you said earlier that our society needs to take greater responsibility to prevent drug use in our society, with at least some emphasis placed on parents and young people themselves. Lightning, it sounds (to me) like you think drug/alcohol use are beneficial for self-knowledge and creativity, and that you even encourage it.
Lightning, your views are just like the ones I heard during my college days, when drug use was absolutely rampant. THose who got involved with drugs suffered a great deal for some time, and they are the very same people who are trying so hard to keep their kids away from the same influences and experiences.
You almost sound like a dealer.
Hermitage
You two should address each other on this thread! Kush, you said earlier that our society needs to take greater responsibility to prevent drug use in our society, with at least some emphasis placed on parents and young people themselves. Lightning, it sounds (to me) like you think drug/alcohol use are beneficial for self-knowledge and creativity, and that you even encourage it.
Lightning, your views are just like the ones I heard during my college days, when drug use was absolutely rampant. THose who got involved with drugs suffered a great deal for some time, and they are the very same people who are trying so hard to keep their kids away from the same influences and experiences.
You almost sound like a dealer.
Hermitage
Lightning,
What does "dealer" mean in the sentence: "Almost everyone in this society is a dealer"? I meant drug dealer. Do you?
Hermitage
What does "dealer" mean in the sentence: "Almost everyone in this society is a dealer"? I meant drug dealer. Do you?
Hermitage
Last edited by Hermitage on Fri Feb 06, 2004 6:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
My question is how do you know what their potential would have been if they had never been on drugs.
I, off course, am in agreement that all means have to be done to educate our young people to the ill effects of drug use, and just say no is a very good start and I believe drug use is down in this country because of it.
I have faith in our young people, they are wiser than we were growing up, drug use is on the decline. Life has more to offer without it and they know it.
I, off course, am in agreement that all means have to be done to educate our young people to the ill effects of drug use, and just say no is a very good start and I believe drug use is down in this country because of it.
I have faith in our young people, they are wiser than we were growing up, drug use is on the decline. Life has more to offer without it and they know it.
Linda
Hermitage,
I did not mean drug dealer. I am not and have never been a drug dealer. Cease from ad hominem arguments and address the issue. Though some have been hurt by drugs they are not all bad, have given much pleasure and enlighenment, facilitated much art, and needn't generate these righteous moral sermons about educating our youth. Other cultures have controlled psychedelics by allocating them to ceremonial use. Britain is on the verge of approving a marijuana based drug ( Sativex from Cannabis Sativa) for pain and multiple sclerosis. Will that be all right with you?
"Just Say No" was a campaign invented by Nancy Reagan. Is her husband a shining example of brain health even if he said "no" over and over?
I did not mean drug dealer. I am not and have never been a drug dealer. Cease from ad hominem arguments and address the issue. Though some have been hurt by drugs they are not all bad, have given much pleasure and enlighenment, facilitated much art, and needn't generate these righteous moral sermons about educating our youth. Other cultures have controlled psychedelics by allocating them to ceremonial use. Britain is on the verge of approving a marijuana based drug ( Sativex from Cannabis Sativa) for pain and multiple sclerosis. Will that be all right with you?
"Just Say No" was a campaign invented by Nancy Reagan. Is her husband a shining example of brain health even if he said "no" over and over?
eh...I was prepared to defend my ideas of drug-control enforcement not whether we should be doing it at all. 
There is a reason why it is called drugs of abuse..as I said it is the addictive nature and craving that is the problem and is too high a price to pay for any perceived artistic benefits. When used for specific medicinal purpose it is a totally different issue although care should be taken that that freedom is not abused. I really cannot think of any present-day culture that uses drugs of abuse other than illegally. Historically, I think these drugs have been used or abused as a means of escapism from harsh realities of everyday life. It is recognized as a problem worldwide today. This list of writers and artists and their drugs of choice - it can make the case that drugs of abuse are beneficial to their artistic endeavors, it can equally make the case that the incidence of drug abuse is high in the subculture of artists, rockstars and writers. For me that is not a convincing argument.
Putting artificial substances into your body and mind for recreational purposes can never be good. This includes stuff like caffeine and nicotine but they are less potent, less exotic.
I don't get the connection between Reagan's Alzheimer's and Just Say No campaign either. I do believe that media attention to its harmful effects has helped atleast somewhat. Drugs ain't cool (isnt that a TV ad?)- there is not an iota of doubt about that in my mind.
There is a reason why it is called drugs of abuse..as I said it is the addictive nature and craving that is the problem and is too high a price to pay for any perceived artistic benefits. When used for specific medicinal purpose it is a totally different issue although care should be taken that that freedom is not abused. I really cannot think of any present-day culture that uses drugs of abuse other than illegally. Historically, I think these drugs have been used or abused as a means of escapism from harsh realities of everyday life. It is recognized as a problem worldwide today. This list of writers and artists and their drugs of choice - it can make the case that drugs of abuse are beneficial to their artistic endeavors, it can equally make the case that the incidence of drug abuse is high in the subculture of artists, rockstars and writers. For me that is not a convincing argument.Putting artificial substances into your body and mind for recreational purposes can never be good. This includes stuff like caffeine and nicotine but they are less potent, less exotic.
I don't get the connection between Reagan's Alzheimer's and Just Say No campaign either. I do believe that media attention to its harmful effects has helped atleast somewhat. Drugs ain't cool (isnt that a TV ad?)- there is not an iota of doubt about that in my mind.
Today is Ronald Reagan's 93rd birthday and this had been mentioned in the news. He no longer appears in public. If not for "artificial substances" he might not be around not to realize it's happening. Nicotine, caffeine, sugar, alcohol, laxatives, nosedrops all non-nutritive and addictive drugs. But none were associated with Viet Nam War protest or other aspects of 60's cultural rebellion. In America you can't bust people for dissent but you can bust them for possession of a controlled substance. That's how psychedelics became illegal. I learned that from a T.V. documentary . called "Grass." I don't know whether or not the Native American Church can still use peyote legally. If not, it's a violation of their constitutional right to religious freedom.
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George.Wright
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