Cohen in Eminem style

[lizzytysh]

Interesting, your interpretation of not being bombastic, Paula. Subtle, were it not for its [even continuing] being so thinly veiled. You're correct.....I tend to be multi-layered and non-linear in my thinking. Life tends to be such. Goes with the territory when I look at it. Few things are simple, in fact. Perhaps one of the reasons I enjoy and respect Leonard's lyrics so much.....and others' widely varied input as to their meaning.

Hmm...."genuine and not a slight"....did you happen to notice the remainder of your paragraph? Even "Cunning" in its finale.....methinks you have a case of mistaken identity. Perhaps, instead, a reflection of the dynamic within your "genuine and not a slight" paragraph. A case of yourself looking back at you .

Lovely diversions you always tend to make away from the original topic, when the topic gets addressed, point-for-point, regarding erroneous presumptions and interpretations.....and toward the person doing the writing. Not an advisable tactic .....generally known as attacking the person when you're unable to "win the argument," i.e. objectively continue in the [by the way, initiated by you] "discussion." Pitiful, Paula.

[Paula]

Liz - I find your posts ambiguous in content - I am/am not/like/admire/maybe/love/perhaps and bureaucratic in tone.

Within your poses you have so many connotations it just seems to be - delete what is not applicable.

If in a response someone takes issue with what you say you point them to the "maybe/perhaps" or whatever comment thereby all aspects of any discussion are easily covered.

I will leave you to the forum - you were here first and you have a plethora of posts the bulk of which I find indecipherable.

I am not bombastic or conflict seeking. I am extremely laid back. Unfortunately in words of plain English - "you wind me up".

I have not re-routed the post from its original statement. I was commenting on Eminen within the context of his capability as a minor poet. The Anglo-Saxon language used by Eminen offends your sensibility and seems to render you incapable/reluctant to consider his talent.

Perhaps the world you live in is sanitised and obsenities are a rarity but for a proportion of the youth population the world in which Eminem did/does inhabit that is reality and every culture/creed/race/generation/class needs a voice and that voice needs to herald from within the community. If you are living in an area which is clean, free from violence, peaceful and law abiding then good for you. But a vast amount of people live in areas that are far from "nice" and street prose reflects that.

You say you are multi-layer. We are all multi-layer. You certainly seem to be multifaceted but I think some of the facets are borrowed/plagiarised from others and are not a true reflection - still "all good things".

As I will probably be drummed off the board I will leave voluntarily with my lapel torn asunder and I am sorry for the antagonism and conflict I appear to have generated.

[lizzytysh]

Paula,

Where is your personal power that you would relinquish it so easily and willingly to me and my posts? It seems that at least one other person understood exactly what I was saying. This is, after all, the Cohen forum. I did not divert to Eminem, though you and others willingly took up with the diversion. I also joined in.

I'm fully aware of generations having their own voice and requiring/warranting/deserving expression. Contrary to your erroneous speculation, I have spent years immersed in "fuck"s in a variety of environments. My sensibilities are quite able to appreciate them in relevant context. However, elevating songs swimming with them, along with a plethora of violent thoughts and ideas, to the level of art is a conceptual leap for me. Why are you so threatened by my not liking Eminem? Why do you feel compelled to assign me such a variety of personal characteristics when I express that I don't? Why is it such an issue with you when I disagree with you? First, about Leonard using filler words, and last, about the merits of Eminem.

When your answers are inadequate to what's been said, you want to claim my writing style [and me?] to be the reason why. Your answers are your own. You make sweeping conclusions to what I've said and then respond sweepingly. If you have problems understanding what I've meant by something in particular I've said, just ask. I do it regularly, when communication is the goal, and it works.

Feel free to quote here some verses of merit that I may have missed in the fog of f's, slashing, and gashing....am I going to take time out of my personal life to devote to trying to listen through them all to find them? No. I'll leave that to the Eminem fans. I'm not personally invested enough in that project. However, I remain open to what you might bring me....the same as I would bring Leonard's verses of merit to others not liking him. The example I've used before in another situation was that of stopping to observe and, if what I'm seeing/hearing is not to my liking, moving on down the street. Perhaps in your laid back life you have the time and inclination to fully research all that you've determined you don't care for. I don't.

You're right that I tend not to state things in absolutes, as that can equate to arrogance. I do allow for being wrong, and others right, and say so when I feel it. However, not allowing you to slam me does not come under that category. Your "wound up" status in regard to me is obvious ~ even to the extent that I've directly expressed agreement with things you've said and spoken with you directly ~ with minimal, if any, response ~ none of it bridge-building. However, thanks for the admission . It appears you are determined to remain in your current space.

My posts are not the only ones here. Surely you know that you are most welcome to remain and participate with all others regarding Cohen or any other thing you choose. You are also welcome to remain and participate with me, if you can do so without being personally deleterious toward me. Others may welcome it, but I won't.

Regarding my "borrowed/plagiarized" self, I've always made it a point to give credit where credit is due....and will continue to do so. Thanks [that's sarcasm, lest you miss the message] for the undermining of who I am, however. In a literal sense, we are all a compilation of facets, from our interactions with others, throughout our lives.

If you leave with your lapel torn asunder, Paula, please don't play the victim with me by blaming it on me, and do accept responsiblity for your own actions, including your departure.

~Lizzytysh

[Linda]

Trying to read around the personal attacks to get at what is being said is getting difficult, but what I manage to get out of this thread, did bring questions to mind for me.
I have not read a lot of LCs earlier poetry, but I have yet to interpret any I have read as saying killing someone was a solution, because you have this lust, hatred, anger, despair, violence in your heart. Granted all his songs, poetry etc. are not love, love, love , but I do not see hatred in them either. He is telling us where we are heading with what we are doing, and the outcome quite often. This Eminem, and the comments made about him to me sound totally opposite of LC. A comment was, Emimen is a voice for the people who don't live in the sanitized world, the world where we rarely hear obscenities, a voice for the people that don't live in the world free from violence, a world that is peaceful, and law abiding. Is there such a world? But wouldn't it be a good world if it were? Ask yourself are Eminems efforts being put into making this kind of world? Shouldn’t he be promoting this kind of world? (and maybe he is) I have never heard him but it doesn‘t sound like it. Are we better off hearing, the obscenities, the kill your mother type of words? I hardly think so. It would be my guess that he is doing it to make money and does not have a lot of concern for the people that are listening to his music. It would be wonderful if I were wrong!

[lizzytysh]

Hi Linda,

I would need to be shown the similarities between Eminem and Leonard, as well. So far, I haven't seen any on my own. As I'm recalling [though don't hold me to this, as I could be remembering wrong], having sex with your mother was another possibility being offered, but that was already covered in Freud's generation, as well as debunked by some who followed.

Leonard's having used some profanity in his own writing, particularly his earlier years, does not make for similarity. I would be interested in reading a verse by Eminem, where such true parallel could be drawn. If one is brought to the fore, I'll still measure it against the whole and the jist of his message[s], yet I will allow for it possibly being the way he really feels in life, and look back on in later years as such, after he's completed his bid for fame and fortune. I also believe his music to be marketing and monetary driven. Leonard's songs have not been written or sung from out of that motive, and I agree with you on the jist of his writing and its perspective. His could be more easily paralleled with a breaking heart.

~Lizzytysh

P.S. Regarding your signature, yes, "madness" can be folly, silliness, mistakes....all milder forms. Madness is a pretty controversial word in itself, when many have been claimed to be such [even ostracized and "imprisoned" for it], yet in fact were anything but, and held a far more realistic and sane perspective. I'm glad to see you'll be keeping it, although you omitted in your immediately preceding post. I do not understand why we should not quote someone from another language in their own language, but rather feel compelled to translate it to English. I'd dare say they said it best in their own language. You speak and write French. You understand it. It's your signature. If others want to know what it means, they can ask and learn in the process. Sounds like a great exchange to me.

[linmag]

Thanks for your support, Elizabeth, but you got the wrong Linda again - precisely the reason why I don't use my name as my signature.

[Kush]

Paula and others....thanks for the recommending Eminem. I had also read an article before comparing his style to Dylan's rough-edged poetry.
Others (i.e. the naysayers), please explore beyond LCs surreal, high-plane world. To limit oneself to LCs music and perspective is to miss out on a lot of good stuff - to blind oneself really.
And on that note....

[Linda]

I can't speak for the rest but I know I am not limiting myself to LC, but am very picky what I listen to. I raised three children through the 60's 70's and 80's and listened to all kinds of music, believe me.
What makes LCs high plane world so surreal? Might be totally, but what is wrong with trying to reach the brass ring, even if you are never going to reach it. If the world were a garbage heap, we wouldn't get any further by wallowing in it.
As for me I would not get very far into listening to a song with the kind of lyrics I am hearing that is in Eminems songs. Doesn't it effect peoples minds, especially our young people?

[Kush]

Sorry..my usage of 'high-plane' was misleading. It wasnt meant as a positive attribute..more neutral and perhaps slightly negative. I can't think of the right term. But this is pointless (should move on to other topics)....there is no good or bad music. Just what we like and what we don't like....which is subjective.

[lizzytysh]

Thanks for pointing that out [again! ], Linmag Linda! I wondered about the immediate omission of your Signature, after you'd just mentioned bloody-mindedness, but figured you had your reasons. In the moment, didn't realize that I'd just "faux pas"d with your primary one!

Kush: I have by no means restricted myself to Leonard either. Nor do I feel in the least blinded. I have listened to a broad spectrum of music, and continue to, yet for my final and regular listening, I like to believe that an appreciable measure of discernment is involved. I also don't share your perception of his music/lyrics as surreal.

Hard-edged is one thing....Eminem another [from my perspective]. I'm surprized to hear the comparison made to Dylan and would be very curious as to the writer. It sounds like that may have initially predisposed you toward a positive-receptor mode for listening to him, in addition to your positive mode for those whom others "dis." As you say, it's all about personal taste, and as I've said, he's not mine. So, have you finally listened to/read his lyrics?

To date, I've failed to see any socially-redeeming value in his music, and what I've heard has simply been destructive. Nor am I willing to wade through all of it [as Linda Linda has suggested, her quitting likely far sooner than I did], hoping to find it. The jury's still out on the effects of music/other "media" on children and other people, yet no one often goes from point A to point Z in their thinking and behaviours. Not that it doesn't happen, but generally it's a process. It's generally a case where they wouldn't just do that, as it would simply be too extreme. However, the longer you're around something, particularly something liked by people you admire [i.e. peers], the more normalized it becomes. You begin to open up to whatever it is, more, as that normalization process occurs. Then, taking it in and co-opting it as your own, follows.

When we're so willing to admit to the positive effects of music, why we're so unwilling to admit to its [at least potential!] impacts is a mystery to me. Music occurs at a different level. It's been substantiated that learning occurs more easily when the information is put in the context of a song and sung. Does the brain automatically screen out the negative and/or useless? My understanding of the subconscious has been that it does not have a sense of humour, so even the negative messages we take in that are cloaked in humour, are still accepted by the brain and subconscious on a literal level.

On another note entirely, I also really appreciated all of your background info regarding Linmag Linda's Signature. It added much to its content. Thanks for sharing all of that. Have meant to mention it several times, yet it didn't return to my thinking until after I'd closed out.

~Lizzytysh

[Kush]

Lizzytysh...I would reply at length but this has reached saturation point, so I'll let this particular conversation dangle .
But I retract my earlier statement re' "exploring..." We should listen to whatever we enjoy.....

[lizzytysh]

Hi Kush,
It took me a minute to find the post of yours that I was looking for. However, I returned to agree with you in a sense. I use my dictionary a lot to make sure I'm using the word I want and the words of others, if I'm uncertain and want to be sure. Haven't used a thesaurus in several years, until last week, when I finally found it and have used it once, still not locating the actual word I was seeking. Need a better thesaurus, or at least a differently arranged one.

Anyway, it occurred to me this morning to look up "surreal" in my dictionary. Looked at "surrealism," as I knew surreal would refer me to it, anyway, as being related. My connotation of it included "not relating to reality" and is apart from its denotation and definition, which is "a modern French movement in art and literature that purports to express subconscious mental activities through fantastic or incongruous imagery or unnatural juxtapositions and combinations." Even though "purports" suggests having a "specious"/false look of truth....and kinda comes back round to my connotation, I feel overall, your word has merit. I know some of his song videos have a definite "surreal" feeling and look to them ~ and by definition, fit "surreal," as they relate to the subconscious.

I sometimes have to struggle with how they portray the song, in relationship to how I relate to it, and find it interesting to see how Leonard relates to it. The "purports" part of it I find challenging, as to me he's very right-on with the subconscious and they don't represent a "false" look of truth at all, but are truth, at least in the way I [for the most part] perceive things. It remains a consideration, of course, that maybe I'm surrealistic.

Anyway, the bottom line is that I may be able to give you "surrealistic" on that one.....how about trade me that for a "_______" .

~Lizzytysh

[johann]

Paula,

I, for one, am sorry that you are leaving the forum. Also, I do not think that you are "pitiful" or "befuddled" or "insincere" or any of the other cruel words directed at you. It is not you who "thrives on conflict".

And no one on this board deserves to have the "twisted evil emoticon" used in a reply against them. This was a real eye-opener for me about the character of the one used it.

Once again, I am sorry to see you go.

[Paula]

Johanna Thank you for your kind words. I did re-think after I posted to say I would not be back and as I really enjoy the site I decided the fact that I have a problem with Liz is inconsequential and I would still post.