Hello, I'm a newbie on the block! A friend introduced me to Love calls you by your name in 1976 and i've never looked back!
Forgive me if this is discussed elsewhere on this site but i'm intrigued and confused by Leonard Cohen's relationship with Zen. I chanced upon a You Tube video, scandinavian in origin in which he seemed to suggest, not in so many words that he had failed at the venture? Ironical for the man who said how can I go forward with all of yesterday inside me.
Any insights would be appreciated but please steer me to where I might find a little more about this important episode in his life.
Many thanks and nice to be here
Stephen
Leonard Cohen and Zen
Re: Leonard Cohen and Zen
Hey, Stephen, welcome to the forum!
Leonard is very ironic guy, as well as very deep and multi-layered: a lot of things that he says are tinged with self-deprecation and excessive humility, and thus one cannot simply take a random interview quote at face value, without considering the context and/or subtext of the discussion, as well as any number of possible things that he may have meant in any given utterance. It is also relevant to consider the difference between an interview and something that Cohen wrote in a poem, book, or song: in the former, he might make more off-the-cuff remarks compared to something he was writing (well, I suspect that Leonard considered his words carefully, even in interviews, but there would not have been the same level of meticulous scrutiny and revisions that he gave to his written words).
The quote you mentioned, I assume, is "How can I begin anything new with all of yesterday in me", from Beautiful Losers, which was written in the mid-1960s (and which was fictional, more or less). I do not know what year Cohen made the remark about failing at the venture (of zen? Of Buddhism? Of being a full-time monk at Mt. Baldy?...) , but I suspect it was later than the 1960s (more like 2000s maybe?). I vaguely recall him saying something to that effect, but I also recall, as alluded to, that there may have been a good dose of self-deprecation involved, and/or Cohen may have been referring to a range of things (related to living at Mt. Baldy, perhaps?), and not just "zen" itself. Can you provide a link to the youtube video you saw, or further information to identify it, to give us some context?
I think that it is accurate to say that Cohen is not, and never was, just one thing: he and his beliefs were made up of myriad different elements derived from many different sources -- he did, after all, study deeply in the religions and the philosophies -- and thus it is reasonable to assume that he assimilated, and perhaps at times rejected, various elements, ideas and practices of the many schools of thought which he explored throughout his life. There will also undoubtedly have been ebbs and flows, with him perhaps leaning more to some things than others at different times in his life, and thus the religions or philosophies (and/or elements thereof) that he may have felt more strongly connected to may have changed and/or evolved throughout his life. Thus, any given thing that he may have said or written should perhaps be viewed as being representative of a particular context and time-frame within Cohen's life, rather than being a definitive statement applicable to the entirety of his existence.
I am not sure exactly what episode in Leonard's life you are referring to, but if you mean his time at Mount Baldy, then he makes some comments about it in this interview:
https://www.npr.org/2016/10/21/49881042 ... -monastery
In the linked interview, Cohen makes some interesting remarks related to some of what you are saying (I think), and here is an excerpt:
GROSS: Did you become a Buddhist because your desires were so dominant?
COHEN: Well, I never became a Buddhist, to tell you the truth.
GROSS: Should I just use the word practicing meditation?
COHEN: Well, I don't even - I bumped into a man many years ago who happened to be a Zen master. I wasn't looking for a religion. I had a perfectly good religion. I certainly wasn't looking for a new series of rituals or new scriptures or dogmas. I wasn't looking for that.
I wasn't looking for anything exalted or spiritual. I had a great sense of disorder in my life of chaos, of depression, of distress. And I had no idea where this came from. And the prevailing psychoanalytic explanations at the time didn't seem to address the things I felt.
So I had to look elsewhere. And I bumped into someone who seemed to be at ease with himself. It seems a simple thing to say he seemed to be at ease with himself and at ease with others. And without ever deeply studying at the time what he was speaking about, it was the man himself that attracted me.
GROSS: How did you decide it was time for you to leave the Zen center?
COHEN: I don't know. I'm never sure why I do anything, to tell you the truth. I don't know if I could tell you the whole story because it's very private. But I felt the reason I'd gone to see Roshi and had become a monk - it was appropriate to become a monk because if I was going to be in his scene, that was the uniform.
As I've often said, if he had been a teacher of, you know, physics in Heidelberg, I would've learned German and studied physics in Heidelberg. So it was appropriate for me to become a monk. But the life was very - is very rigorous. I mean, it's designed to overthrow a 21-year-old. So I was already in my, you know, 60s and late 60s.
So there was that part of it. But I had the feeling that it wasn't doing any good. And it wasn't really addressing this real problem of distress, which seemed to be the background of all my feelings and activities and thoughts.
So I began to feel that this is a lot of work for very little return. That was a kind of - the kind of feelings - the kind of superficial feelings I had. There were other feelings that are ambiguous and too difficult to describe. They deserve or probably should be described in song or poetry rather than conversation.
Leonard is very ironic guy, as well as very deep and multi-layered: a lot of things that he says are tinged with self-deprecation and excessive humility, and thus one cannot simply take a random interview quote at face value, without considering the context and/or subtext of the discussion, as well as any number of possible things that he may have meant in any given utterance. It is also relevant to consider the difference between an interview and something that Cohen wrote in a poem, book, or song: in the former, he might make more off-the-cuff remarks compared to something he was writing (well, I suspect that Leonard considered his words carefully, even in interviews, but there would not have been the same level of meticulous scrutiny and revisions that he gave to his written words).
The quote you mentioned, I assume, is "How can I begin anything new with all of yesterday in me", from Beautiful Losers, which was written in the mid-1960s (and which was fictional, more or less). I do not know what year Cohen made the remark about failing at the venture (of zen? Of Buddhism? Of being a full-time monk at Mt. Baldy?...) , but I suspect it was later than the 1960s (more like 2000s maybe?). I vaguely recall him saying something to that effect, but I also recall, as alluded to, that there may have been a good dose of self-deprecation involved, and/or Cohen may have been referring to a range of things (related to living at Mt. Baldy, perhaps?), and not just "zen" itself. Can you provide a link to the youtube video you saw, or further information to identify it, to give us some context?
I think that it is accurate to say that Cohen is not, and never was, just one thing: he and his beliefs were made up of myriad different elements derived from many different sources -- he did, after all, study deeply in the religions and the philosophies -- and thus it is reasonable to assume that he assimilated, and perhaps at times rejected, various elements, ideas and practices of the many schools of thought which he explored throughout his life. There will also undoubtedly have been ebbs and flows, with him perhaps leaning more to some things than others at different times in his life, and thus the religions or philosophies (and/or elements thereof) that he may have felt more strongly connected to may have changed and/or evolved throughout his life. Thus, any given thing that he may have said or written should perhaps be viewed as being representative of a particular context and time-frame within Cohen's life, rather than being a definitive statement applicable to the entirety of his existence.
I am not sure exactly what episode in Leonard's life you are referring to, but if you mean his time at Mount Baldy, then he makes some comments about it in this interview:
https://www.npr.org/2016/10/21/49881042 ... -monastery
In the linked interview, Cohen makes some interesting remarks related to some of what you are saying (I think), and here is an excerpt:
GROSS: Did you become a Buddhist because your desires were so dominant?
COHEN: Well, I never became a Buddhist, to tell you the truth.
GROSS: Should I just use the word practicing meditation?
COHEN: Well, I don't even - I bumped into a man many years ago who happened to be a Zen master. I wasn't looking for a religion. I had a perfectly good religion. I certainly wasn't looking for a new series of rituals or new scriptures or dogmas. I wasn't looking for that.
I wasn't looking for anything exalted or spiritual. I had a great sense of disorder in my life of chaos, of depression, of distress. And I had no idea where this came from. And the prevailing psychoanalytic explanations at the time didn't seem to address the things I felt.
So I had to look elsewhere. And I bumped into someone who seemed to be at ease with himself. It seems a simple thing to say he seemed to be at ease with himself and at ease with others. And without ever deeply studying at the time what he was speaking about, it was the man himself that attracted me.
GROSS: How did you decide it was time for you to leave the Zen center?
COHEN: I don't know. I'm never sure why I do anything, to tell you the truth. I don't know if I could tell you the whole story because it's very private. But I felt the reason I'd gone to see Roshi and had become a monk - it was appropriate to become a monk because if I was going to be in his scene, that was the uniform.
As I've often said, if he had been a teacher of, you know, physics in Heidelberg, I would've learned German and studied physics in Heidelberg. So it was appropriate for me to become a monk. But the life was very - is very rigorous. I mean, it's designed to overthrow a 21-year-old. So I was already in my, you know, 60s and late 60s.
So there was that part of it. But I had the feeling that it wasn't doing any good. And it wasn't really addressing this real problem of distress, which seemed to be the background of all my feelings and activities and thoughts.
So I began to feel that this is a lot of work for very little return. That was a kind of - the kind of feelings - the kind of superficial feelings I had. There were other feelings that are ambiguous and too difficult to describe. They deserve or probably should be described in song or poetry rather than conversation.
Re: Leonard Cohen and Zen
Thank you so much for this extensive reply. And thank you also for identifying the quote from beautiful losers of which I was unaware.
You're right of course! examining the life of Mahler in the context of his art is far more straightforward than that of Leonard Cohen! I have been particularly interested in his relationship with Zen and meditation since I practised myself for awhile, I think it always remained so important to him. I recall when I read one of several biographies it was pointed out how it likely helped him keep his cool when he learned of all his money being embezzled? Also I finally got around to obtaining "The flame" and read his son saying how meditation helped as he struggled to finish the book.
As for the You tube video. I wish I could find it again. I chanced upon it while browsing during a sleepless night so memory is a bit hazy. Im certain it was Scandinavian in origin and included music footage along with a lengthy interview.
Thank you again
Stephen
You're right of course! examining the life of Mahler in the context of his art is far more straightforward than that of Leonard Cohen! I have been particularly interested in his relationship with Zen and meditation since I practised myself for awhile, I think it always remained so important to him. I recall when I read one of several biographies it was pointed out how it likely helped him keep his cool when he learned of all his money being embezzled? Also I finally got around to obtaining "The flame" and read his son saying how meditation helped as he struggled to finish the book.
As for the You tube video. I wish I could find it again. I chanced upon it while browsing during a sleepless night so memory is a bit hazy. Im certain it was Scandinavian in origin and included music footage along with a lengthy interview.
Thank you again
Stephen
Re: Leonard Cohen and Zen
Well, there's "Zen" (in its formal "Buddhist" guise), and then there's "zen" (a casual and informal set of practices), and they are not the same thing. One can be the latter and not the former, and one can fail at the former but succeed at the latter. That may be relevant to what has been written above. 