Joni casts off Leonard discourteously

[tomsakic]

I totally agree with you, Bruna.
I considred Camus-Cohen relationship a while. Leonard did say that he was influenced by "everything he read, saw or heard", and he did mentioned "Camus, Sartre" ~ following the notion of Camus' most famous work, novel The Stranger, and Leonard's same name song = there's nothing similar than a title... Leonard's song is about the man who gambles, in a methaphorical way... Who also travels and always goes away, always staying the stranger (hence the early version's title "The Traveller"); he isn't alienated or anything like that, in Camus' way, I think.

[witty_owl]

Reading a little further, beyond the specific comments on Leonard and Bob, I get the impression that Joni is a little miffed that her work is not so widely recognised as some of her contemporaries, not even by her own record company. That she has tried sooo hard to be totally original and with impeccable integrity. To a greater degree I think she has achieved this but we are all plagirists consciously or unconsciously and so I do not think that this is an entirely valid criticism of Leonard. That which we take form other artists, writers, philosophers, etc. is part of the creative process. It is very much a part of the communication process that is art. Joni's complaint is a familiar story with regard to women artists for many centuries past. Men always get higher accolades for lesser work than women who are their contemporaries. Female painters for example have barely been recognised at all up until the latter part of the 20th century. How many female composers do we know of?
I think that Joni's comments sound a lot more terse than she perhaps intended and I wonder if this is how the media reported it? What has been edited etc? I have as much appreciation and respect for Joni's work as I do for Leonard's and Bob's. They have each contributed in their own unique way and comparisons or negative criticisms have little value by way of describing the influence that each songwriter has had on our culture and personal lives. Nothing I read here changes my opinion of Leonard or Joni as singer songwriters.
Cheers, Witty.

[lizzytysh]

That's certainly very balanced commentary, Witty Owl. Very good.

[YankovicGretzky]

I can't stand Joni Mitchell!

[lightning]

The greatest tribute to Joni is the female impersonator who almost duplicates her, John Kelley, a serious talented performance artist who created apiece called "Paved Paradise", among others, where he dressed like her, blonde wig, a variety of costumes, and covered her songs impeccably. No-one has ever loved Leonard Cohen or Bob Dylan that deeply and that well.

[lizzytysh]

I wonder who [if either] is 'easier' to be impersonated ~ a man or a woman.

I've always loved Joni Mitchell, but am certainly taken aback by her comments in question.

[Tri-me]

There is the possibility that her comments were edited. It is bad form to criticize a fellow artist this way. I know that some artists don't care for other's personalities, but they don't make criticism like this. What she said was contemptuous.

[lizzytysh]

I agree, Tri-me.

[YankovicGretzky]

Could someone please list the songs, poems or novels in which Leonard Cohen uses lines in from Lorca & Camus?

[lightning]

You could e-mail Joni's official web site and ask for clarification. It's run by someone who knows her, as Jarkko knows Leonard Cohen.

mosalm@mindspring.com

[September_Cohen]

Leonard once said : "For scavenger like me"...
Voltaire once said : "everything has been said"....but I add "not by everyone!"

[linmag]

We are all influenced by things we see, hear, read or experience. Our own thoughts and attitudes cannot help being shaped by this, and those of us lucky enough to be able to create works of art cannot possibly guarantee that those works are wholly uninfluenced by anything external. I think Leonard's attitude ("a scavenger like me") is far more honest than Joni's, and her comments were at best thoughtless. We are all "standing on the shoulders of giants". (Help me here, someone, please? I have no idea who this quote is from!)

[lightning]

Google answers you:

British Bi-metallic £2 Coins, 1997 Onwards
This British coin carries the inscription:-
STANDING ON THE SHOULDERS OF GIANTS
on its edge.
"The edge inscription encapsulates perfectly the essence of the reverse design, and has been taken from a letter written by Isaac Newton to fellow scientist Robert Hooke on 5th. February 1676, where he very modestly claimed that his success had been built on the achievement of others: "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants"".
It is possible that Benjamin Franklin said it also, but later!
According to another source we found on the web http://www.win-uk.net/~jherbert/giants.html:-
A guestbook entry from Alan Williams quotes the Oxford Dictionary (of Quotations?) as crediting Bernard of Chartes with the first usage of "on the shoulders of giants" in about 1130.

[Tchocolatl]

Thanks, at first sight I would have say it was quoted from Jack and the Beans, I'm lost in my litterate knowledge that is so vast and amazing, I have to add, in my modesty.

[linmag]

Thanks, Lightening! If Google isn't sure who to attribute it to, then I don't feel so bad about not knowing it myself