Tri-me,
I have to say I reread your analogy with the candle and don't understand. I get into these philosophical debates but they become a passtime. I once read that the buddhas opinion on what happens after death is that he didn't care, its irrelevant, why speculate. Contrast that with Western philosophers who tortured them self with that question. Its really hard for westerners to get their heads out of this analytical thinking but it tortures us on occasion. Its hard to let go.
Retreats on Mount Baldy
The candle thing has to do with how once something has arisen it leads to the next moment, so once the fire is gone there is smoke then nothing and nothing cannot lead to a next moment. I am just saying in the absence of the fire leads to the creation of space which is a thing. Without space you would not hear anything, see anything, the uncverse would collapse. It is very interesting to me that there is room for debate on this. Have you ever seen buddhist debate? I love it because it is a tool to see how much you know about a subject where you need to study more. It was funny at Nitartha our teacher said our tests are not tests they are celebrations of what we had learnt and a chance to see clearly what we did not learn 
This is tongue in cheek, but it did eliviate the stress of taking the exams.
On self imposed retreat
Up early in the morning, no, TV, no, radio, no computer just meditation, work and study. I work as a massage therapist so my work is a chance to practice. Everyone's job is a chance to practice.
It is really hard to explain things to people because when you read you are able to see it from your perspective another person's perspective may be similar but it will never ever be exactly the same.
Being in the moment is the goal. This is the challenge. this is what I was taught this summer about this. i was taught still working on the learning part.
phenomenon that which bears its own entity
Past Phenomenon
A thing other than a present phenomenon that is the aspect of what has perished in the second moment after the time of its coming into existence
Future Phenomenon
A thing other than a present phenomenon that is the aspect of what has not arisen at a given time of an object due to incompleteness of its condition, although the cause for its arising exist.
Present Phenomenon
Something that has arisen and not yet parished
generally characterised phenomena: that which cannot ultimately perform a function
Both past phenomena and future phenomena are not things. They are generally characterized phenomena. Since past phenomena have already perished, they are generally characterised phenomena, and since future phenomena have not arisen yet, they are generally characterised phenomena. By virtue of a thing being a thing, it necessarily has to be a present thing. In this tradition, it is asserted that whatever is a future or past phenomena is necessarily a nonthing.
Try explaining that to your friends at a cocktail party. Basically, since dwelling on the past and future does not perform a function why bother?
This is tongue in cheek, but it did eliviate the stress of taking the exams.On self imposed retreat
Up early in the morning, no, TV, no, radio, no computer just meditation, work and study. I work as a massage therapist so my work is a chance to practice. Everyone's job is a chance to practice.
It is really hard to explain things to people because when you read you are able to see it from your perspective another person's perspective may be similar but it will never ever be exactly the same.
Being in the moment is the goal. This is the challenge. this is what I was taught this summer about this. i was taught still working on the learning part.
phenomenon that which bears its own entity
Past Phenomenon
A thing other than a present phenomenon that is the aspect of what has perished in the second moment after the time of its coming into existence
Future Phenomenon
A thing other than a present phenomenon that is the aspect of what has not arisen at a given time of an object due to incompleteness of its condition, although the cause for its arising exist.
Present Phenomenon
Something that has arisen and not yet parished
generally characterised phenomena: that which cannot ultimately perform a function
Both past phenomena and future phenomena are not things. They are generally characterized phenomena. Since past phenomena have already perished, they are generally characterised phenomena, and since future phenomena have not arisen yet, they are generally characterised phenomena. By virtue of a thing being a thing, it necessarily has to be a present thing. In this tradition, it is asserted that whatever is a future or past phenomena is necessarily a nonthing.
Try explaining that to your friends at a cocktail party. Basically, since dwelling on the past and future does not perform a function why bother?
Cheers & DLight
Tri-me (tree-mite) Sheldrön
"Doorhinge rhymes with orange" Leonard Cohen
Tri-me (tree-mite) Sheldrön
"Doorhinge rhymes with orange" Leonard Cohen
It's been along time, but I used to follow Ken Keyes pretty closely. One of his "Pathways" still resonates very strongly with me:
"I always remember I have everything I need to enjoy my here and now, unless my conciousness is dominated by demands and expectations based on the dead past or the imagined future."
Or most directly, Ram Dass --- "Be Here Now!"
Ohmmmmmm.....
"I always remember I have everything I need to enjoy my here and now, unless my conciousness is dominated by demands and expectations based on the dead past or the imagined future."
Or most directly, Ram Dass --- "Be Here Now!"
Ohmmmmmm.....
.
. He may even have recommended it to me 
.17 Sep 2006 - Dalai Lama receives inaugural Living Peace Award at blessing of The Great Stupa of Dharmakaya
Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche today presented His Holiness the Dalai Lama with the first Living Peace Award, recognizing him not only as one of the world's foremost peace activists, but as a human being who embodies peace.
In a citation for the occasion, His Holiness was described as "an indelible reminder to the entire world of what it truly means to live peace."
"Through his personal example in the face of overwhelming suffering; through his profound inner cultivation as one who travels the path to enlightenment; through the love he has awakened in the hearts of human beings the world over - of all faiths and cultures; and through his tireless efforts to bring humanity into harmony with itself and with our precious planet earth, His Holiness has become an indelible reminder to the entire world of what it truly means to live peace," the citation stated.
His Holiness arrived by helicopter at the mountain retreat to a sold-out event attended by some two thousand people. He blessed the Great Stupa and spoke on the theme of "Compassion in Global Leadership" along with the Sakyong, Queen Noor of Jordan and Rabbi Irwin Kula of the The National Jewish Center for Learning and Leadership.
The Living Peace award was developed by the Sakyong to honour "individuals or groups who live peace in their lives and thus inspire others." The Dalai Lama received a gold medallion engraved with an image of the Great Stupa, the symbol of the award.
"Nestled in the Colorado Rockies, the stupa is also a symbol of the longing of countless Americans for peace, at home and abroad," the Sakyong said.
Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche today presented His Holiness the Dalai Lama with the first Living Peace Award, recognizing him not only as one of the world's foremost peace activists, but as a human being who embodies peace.
In a citation for the occasion, His Holiness was described as "an indelible reminder to the entire world of what it truly means to live peace."
"Through his personal example in the face of overwhelming suffering; through his profound inner cultivation as one who travels the path to enlightenment; through the love he has awakened in the hearts of human beings the world over - of all faiths and cultures; and through his tireless efforts to bring humanity into harmony with itself and with our precious planet earth, His Holiness has become an indelible reminder to the entire world of what it truly means to live peace," the citation stated.
His Holiness arrived by helicopter at the mountain retreat to a sold-out event attended by some two thousand people. He blessed the Great Stupa and spoke on the theme of "Compassion in Global Leadership" along with the Sakyong, Queen Noor of Jordan and Rabbi Irwin Kula of the The National Jewish Center for Learning and Leadership.
The Living Peace award was developed by the Sakyong to honour "individuals or groups who live peace in their lives and thus inspire others." The Dalai Lama received a gold medallion engraved with an image of the Great Stupa, the symbol of the award.
"Nestled in the Colorado Rockies, the stupa is also a symbol of the longing of countless Americans for peace, at home and abroad," the Sakyong said.
Cheers & DLight
Tri-me (tree-mite) Sheldrön
"Doorhinge rhymes with orange" Leonard Cohen
Tri-me (tree-mite) Sheldrön
"Doorhinge rhymes with orange" Leonard Cohen
What an enjoyable thread to saunter through. Johnny7moons really started something here.
Tri-me and Koan, I particularly enjoyed your "stammerings" (St.Juan de la Cruz) and stammer is all we can do when talking on the ineffable (satori, samadhi), and ways/methods/schools to awakening.
The candle metaphore is handy for what we might call this conscious life. Buddhists who argue that all ceases when the smoke from the dying candle dissipates, are rightly labeled by others as "nihilists".
And those who argue that "candles can be neither created nor destroyed" would argue also that the energy/consciousness has merely changed form, or if you like, the T.V. of OM (aum) has merely changed channels and therefore the show changes but the viewing go's on.
The candle dissipating to nothingness and only "nowness" treats time (and therefore space) as a lineal entity and this works for this world and this life.
On the other hand, the Einstein-ian candle would merely change form. And so too would the candle of the Hindu, the Tao'ist, the Abrahamic religions and the other half of Buddhism not to mention aboriginal perspectives around the planet.
Any "school" which teaches "the end of the candle is nigh" is an over-ridingly rational school. Reason (the bodhi in budha) always leads us down the garden path to drought, famine and nihilism when discussing "being and non-being".
While I admit it is only a preference, I prefer the attitude of "My kingdom is not of this world" when contemplating the journey of the "Fool" ,{ the Hindu atman or "Dweller", the Greek Soul, the Jewish Christian Holy Spirit, and so on.
The mystics and gnostics from all traditions sing in chorus on this issue of transience.
That some purely rational classical Greeks, a few depressed French philosophers and a couple of Buddhist rationalists view existence otherwise is..... predictable.
Buddha (the epitome of reason) was a practicing Hindu all his life, as Christ was a practicing Jew all his. The Hindus argue that those followers of the Buddha who edge toward nihilism and extinction of the candle 'Atma" were wrong. They over-value reason, I suppose.
Cervantes suggests through Don Quixote that he wasn't brave enough to believe in nothing. (unreason-able but pregnant with something beyond hopelessness.)
Poets usually rescue us here.
If the dove represents hope then the raven represents "no hope" (nihilism).
Edgar A Poe cries in his wonderful poem "The Raven",
..."Take thy beak from out my heart
Quit the bust above my door"
quoth the Raven,.... "nevermore !"
...and my soul, from out that shadow
that lies floating on the floor
shall be lifted......nevermore.....
I leave it up to you to ponder.
It is a great topic to debate!!! " Onward to glory I go" (don Quixote) with a dove or two..
MatJ
Tri-me and Koan, I particularly enjoyed your "stammerings" (St.Juan de la Cruz) and stammer is all we can do when talking on the ineffable (satori, samadhi), and ways/methods/schools to awakening.
The candle metaphore is handy for what we might call this conscious life. Buddhists who argue that all ceases when the smoke from the dying candle dissipates, are rightly labeled by others as "nihilists".
And those who argue that "candles can be neither created nor destroyed" would argue also that the energy/consciousness has merely changed form, or if you like, the T.V. of OM (aum) has merely changed channels and therefore the show changes but the viewing go's on.
The candle dissipating to nothingness and only "nowness" treats time (and therefore space) as a lineal entity and this works for this world and this life.
On the other hand, the Einstein-ian candle would merely change form. And so too would the candle of the Hindu, the Tao'ist, the Abrahamic religions and the other half of Buddhism not to mention aboriginal perspectives around the planet.
Any "school" which teaches "the end of the candle is nigh" is an over-ridingly rational school. Reason (the bodhi in budha) always leads us down the garden path to drought, famine and nihilism when discussing "being and non-being".
While I admit it is only a preference, I prefer the attitude of "My kingdom is not of this world" when contemplating the journey of the "Fool" ,{ the Hindu atman or "Dweller", the Greek Soul, the Jewish Christian Holy Spirit, and so on.
The mystics and gnostics from all traditions sing in chorus on this issue of transience.
That some purely rational classical Greeks, a few depressed French philosophers and a couple of Buddhist rationalists view existence otherwise is..... predictable.
Buddha (the epitome of reason) was a practicing Hindu all his life, as Christ was a practicing Jew all his. The Hindus argue that those followers of the Buddha who edge toward nihilism and extinction of the candle 'Atma" were wrong. They over-value reason, I suppose.
Cervantes suggests through Don Quixote that he wasn't brave enough to believe in nothing. (unreason-able but pregnant with something beyond hopelessness.)
Poets usually rescue us here.
If the dove represents hope then the raven represents "no hope" (nihilism).
Edgar A Poe cries in his wonderful poem "The Raven",
..."Take thy beak from out my heart
Quit the bust above my door"
quoth the Raven,.... "nevermore !"
...and my soul, from out that shadow
that lies floating on the floor
shall be lifted......nevermore.....
I leave it up to you to ponder.
It is a great topic to debate!!! " Onward to glory I go" (don Quixote) with a dove or two..
MatJ
"Without light or guide, save that which burned in my heart." San Juan de la Cruz.
-
johnny7moons
- Posts: 121
- Joined: Mon May 26, 2003 12:59 am
Heh. Mat, I take no responsibility for any of this. A few years ago I was on retreat in a Vietnamese monastery in France, and i got into a long rambling conversation with a couple of other guys, much like the conversation on this thread. After a while one of the monks came up from behind us (he'd obviously been eavesdropping), chuckling, and said, "guys, you know, if we were practicing in the Japanese tradition, justtalking like this would get you a beating." Then he walked off, laughing at us as he went.
How do I feel about the meaning of life today?
The news about the tragic violent needless death of those little girls pulls the rug out from under my feet. These kind of tragic events happen in other parts of the world and we may not hear about them. Humans can be so cruel. Treasure every moment and be good to others, sounds simple but when something like this happens it seems to be a big thing.
The news about the tragic violent needless death of those little girls pulls the rug out from under my feet. These kind of tragic events happen in other parts of the world and we may not hear about them. Humans can be so cruel. Treasure every moment and be good to others, sounds simple but when something like this happens it seems to be a big thing.
Cheers & DLight
Tri-me (tree-mite) Sheldrön
"Doorhinge rhymes with orange" Leonard Cohen
Tri-me (tree-mite) Sheldrön
"Doorhinge rhymes with orange" Leonard Cohen