So cruel and so bright.

[Manna]

When lovers come together, there is much to consider. Likewise, when man and God come together.

I recently said to a friend, I wonder if there's a way that two people can be opposed, but both be right, and have it work painlessly. I was talking about a difficulty he’d had in love. My friend reminded me of Leonard’s, “Myself, I long for love and light, but must it come so cruel and be so bright?” We talked a bit about differences between how men and women love. Sometimes one wants to love their other with more completeness than the other can handle. To accept being loved when you know all your own faults is more difficult than it may sound. I think people say they want to be loved, but when they are, it can be embarrassing, and this makes the beloved want to close down. How can I deserve all this love? Let me be. I need to think. I can’t talk right now. You’re too big. Please, let me be, I need a good cry.

Something else of Leonard’s came up as well, “Stop at the surface, the surface is fine, we don’t need to go any deeper.”

So I want to put the question to all you thinky folks. Do you think love and light can come without its cruelty? Without the pain? Without being so bright? Do you think love can be so deep and true and heavenly and big without also requiring the wrenching and tearing of a soul?

[lazariuk]

quoting leonard “Myself, I long for love and light, but must it come so cruel and be so bright?”

I think another way is being pointed to.

[Manna]

Maybe you could elaborate?

[lazariuk]

Maybe you could elaborate?

Elaborate?
As in :"executed with painstaking attention to numerous parts or details" ?

I could but I won't

[dar]

Manna,

I know what it's like to post a "Big" question on the board and to hope to maybe get some insight from all the insightful folks in the forum. But, the "L" word. It's a biggie. LC certainly has a way with that word! For me, as I've aged and lived through, in, around, with, without, and all about all kinds of love, from intense blinding bat-shit crazy love to miraculous awe-inspiring mother love at the birth of my children to attempts to connect quietly to that divine love of this gift of our life and the connection to one another, I guess that line of LC's..."Love's the only engine of survival"....is about right for me.

Heaven knows it's not easy to get it right and I suppose it's the story of many of our lives, including LC, but, whether you're in the midst of a Big Bang or just a bit of stardust, or perhaps a black hole (o, what an awful thought that is, I just realized maybe that is what I am lately. haha horrors), and, o, hell, I just forgot my whole point! Anyway, it's good stuff. Geez, what a philosopher I am now. I'm actually laughing at myself at this attempt to try to say something to you about love. That's good too! And also points out how I don't know what the hell I'm talking about but at least I tried to answer you. So, maybe that's the idea. Keeping trying? Keep truckin'? Keep..f...well, you get my point.

Dar

[Red Poppy]

I think Leonard and Jennifer Warnes approached he same question in Song of Bernadette.
And the result was in those lines:
We fall, we fly,
we mostly fall, we mostly run
and every now and then wqe try
to mend the damage that we done.
(Quoting from memory so I may a word or two out)
I'm not sure the human condition ever allows for the brightness without the darkness - in fact would or could we appreciate the one without the other? Would we be bored even by a totality of brightness?

[Red Poppy]

It wasn't the memory but the typing that let me down - let me try again:

I think Leonard and Jennifer Warnes approached the same question in Song of Bernadette.
And the result was in those lines:
We fall, we fly,
we mostly fall, we mostly run
and every now and then we try
to mend the damage that we've done.
(Quoting from memory so I may a word or two out)
I'm not sure the human condition ever allows for the brightness without the darkness - in fact would or could we appreciate the one without the other? (The crack that lets in the light - Patrick Kavanagh had an interesting take on that in the poem Advent when he wrote: "Throughh a gap too wide comes in no wonder.")
Would we be bored, even, by a totality of brightness?

[John Etherington]

Great question Manna, and some great responses here. In his songs Leonard has certainly explored the multi-faceted aspects of love more perceptively than other other contemporary songwriter that I can think of. I feel that my own experience of love seems to be close to Leonard's in many ways, which is no doubt why his work is so profoundly important to me (and I guess for the majority of his "devotees"). As with others of a certain artistic temperament, Leonard's quest for love seems to be tied-up with a spiritual yearning and the pursuit of something intangible that is projected onto the beloved. Hence,there is the tendency to idealize certain women and raise them to the stature of goddesses. There is also a tendency to be drawn mainly to women of an obvious physical beauty. Most importantly however, there is the (usually unconscious) tendency to be drawn to those whose wounds are similar to ones own. Although at first this will not be apparent, once the relationship starts to take on any real depth, then any previously hidden pain will begin to make its presence felt. Thus we are drawn into into deeper issues which are grounded in childhood experience and parental issues. This is where the cruelty often manifests. There are so many things to consider here...one's sense of self-worth, and ability to be effective, individualistic, understanding etc. I suspect that is only if we can bring these things into some reasonable place of integration (and with at least some sense of humour) that we can aspire to that elusive thing called love.

All good things, John E

[lizzytysh]

As with others of a certain artistic temperament, Leonard's quest for love seems to be tied-up with a spiritual yearning and the pursuit of something intangible that is projected onto the beloved. Hence,there is the tendency to idealize certain women and raise them to the stature of goddesses. There is also a tendency to be drawn mainly to women of an obvious physical beauty. Most importantly however, there is the (usually unconscious) tendency to be drawn to those whose wounds are similar to ones own. Although at first this will not be apparent, once the relationship starts to take on any real depth, then any previously hidden pain will begin to make its presence felt. Thus we are drawn into into deeper issues which are grounded in childhood experience and parental issues. This is where the cruelty often manifests. There are so many things to consider here...one's sense of self-worth, and ability to be effective, individualistic, understanding etc. I suspect that is only if we can bring these things into some reasonable place of integration (and with at least some sense of humour) that we can aspire to that elusive thing called love.

Immense and impressive response, John . Immense being stature not size.


~ Lizzy

[John Etherington]

Bless you Lizzy! And as Leonard would say - Thank you for your kind words.

[secretchord]

“Myself, I long for love and light, but must it come so cruel and be so bright?”

thanks for posting this, this happens to be one of my favourite lines of Leonard

so many to choose from, of course, but I never hear or read this one without being moved deeply. Love is destructive and cruel as well as beautiful and uplifting. Leonard's expression of love operates on different levels, I think he is totally besotted with God/Reality/Truth whatever and that expresses itself in songs that may be taken conventionally as love songs to a real person or may be addressed to the Beloved. I believe Leonard is a mystic and operates in the same tradition as Rumi and the sufi poets who invariably address God as their intimate lover and Beloved and suffer unbearable longing at the seperation they must endure while waiting for release from the physical world and the reunion with their lover that this will bring. I guess we can all read things in so many different ways but I believe Leonard has had some very profound spiritual experiences that he doesn't really go into as they are very private and personal but they come out in his songs. It's as though he's in a state of spiritual exile, he can't understand why he was chosen to experience what he has ("how come you called me here tonight, how come you bother with my heart at all") and longs to be taken back to the heart of his Beloved but life can never really be other than a kind of dream with no substance or fulfillment but you have to get on with it and sing Hallelujah anyway, even the broken one, even when you're back on Boogie Street.

[John Etherington]

Hi Secretchord,

I totally agree with what you say, here. This is of course particularly apparent on "Various Positions" and "Book of Mercy".

All the best, John E

[lizzytysh]

Yes, in the 'other' direction, SecretChord, your response is equally immense and impressive. The beauty of Leonard's work.


~ Lizzy

[melody57105]

Do you think love and light can come without its cruelty? Without the pain? Without being so bright?

A couple of thoughts came to mind. When I was about to have my daughter I was apprehensive about the new so-called natural childbirth and just how much pain I could be in. The best answer I got was that yes, it's painful but once you see the baby you'll forget all about it. Quite true.

The other came from my pastor as I was trying desperately trying to hold my second marriage together. I don't remember the exact context but his point was that we each have a picture of love in our mind. The closer you and your partner's pictures are, the less pain there will be.

He also pointed out that I was a passionate person and felt both the highs and lows of life (and love) deeply. My husband was more middle-of-the-road and I ultimately felt very alone in the marriage.

Do you think love can be so deep and true and heavenly and big without also requiring the wrenching and tearing of a soul?

Does it require the wrenching and tearing of a soul? I think yes. No two souls are born alike. It's through the wrenching and tearing and breaking and mending that two souls can meld.

[Manna]

Thanks for all the responses. They've each touched me in various ways.

I know my husband loves me in a way that sometimes feels bigger than I can handle. He is willing, generous, romantic, and helpful to me. He allows me to use him for the sake of my own satisfaction. I have also come to see that, while I wouldn’t use the word voracious, I would use insatiable to describe myself. I have used that word, and I think that it's there is related to our drive for survival. I take all he gives, and the fact that I take it and still want makes me feel selfish. I don’t think I’m as generous as he is. There is always want, even when want is satisfied. I think this is because now is always now, and that satisfaction immediately becomes the past. I mean the last thing I wanted was satisfied, and now it’s now. Now I want something else, or I want the same thing again.

I wonder: if I stopped wanting, what would that do to him? Maybe he would feel dejected. So maybe it’s good for me to want. Maybe he loves that I want.

Do you think Leonard was talking about this? The cruelty of love is the guilt of the beloved? Any ideas for what else it might be? It’s the same with God, yeah? God wants you tell him all the bad stuff you’ve done so he can forgive you because he loves you. That’s one version of the story I’ve been hearing since birth. But who wants God, that is, GOD to know all the bad stuff you’ve done? I think a person needs to be willing to accept the true, deep, big love in order for it come without it feeling cruel. He wants to love all of me, and I have to let him, whether it’s my husband or my God.

Maybe I should make some confessions.