leonardcohenforum.com

Dear Lizzy (possibly Mr Kory)

Thank you for your kind offer I am unable to take you up on it as I can't fly to the US/ Australia.

Maybe if Leonard is coming to Asia sometime in the future..would be grateful for tickets then. Do let us know when it is firmed up ok?

Many thanks and kind regards

First Lizzy I can assure you that not everyone who wrote has received a reply.

Second I have been informed by another poster here that not all the replies have been as kind or perhaps as polite.

I can understand this, if true. This is a stressful incident and people are busy, and a lot has to be done to bring the rest of the tour to a successful conclusion.

But the more you attempt a hagiography of all involved, the more you stir rebuttals. Mistakes were made. There was a lack of "due diligence" at an early enough stage in the proceedings, and it is the fans who pay the price.

And I note that Mr Kory's email confirms exactly what many people suggested about the reasons for the cancellation and you criticized them for suggesting. Yes, inept local arrangements, and, yes, economic factors were considerable parts of it. Incidentally, I think it is a little strange to cite sound quality issues AND economic issues. I note that I interviewed the pop group Suede a few years ago, whom I like but esteem far far less than Mr Cohen, and they told me they were facing huge losses for a concert that they gave anyway. They had promised the fans.

Some here seem to think you are Mr Kory. I am sure not. I do not think for one second that HIS attitude would be "They should be grateful we even TRIED to give them Cambodia", or that people who didn't buy tickets in the first six months don't deserve a show now.

***From all I've seen and heard of Robert (including some of the backstage footage) he is a true fan and a gentleman, and I admire him for his love of Leonard and for his love of good red wine.***

As a true fan himself I am sure he can put himself in the position of those for whom, no matter how much they love Leonard, this would not have been the third or fourth or fifth Leonard concert but the ONLY Leonard concert.

Robert and Leonard are big boys. They can take their lumps. At this point you are no longer arguing on their behalf but your own and just pouring more of that gasoline on the flames

***Apologies for my error above. I was mixing up my Robs. It is of course Rob Hallett who coaxed Leonard out of retirement from touring and is the huge fan who also loves red wine. I have no idea whether Robert Kory fits into the same category.

Gary ~

Anyone here who thinks I'm Robert, or even is sure I'm not, hasn't been here long. If they had been, they would unequivocally know I'm not.

This is an example of the kinds of conjectures I criticized:

LHHUNTER wrote:I think LC himself is to blame for this fiasco. I believe it was his idea to play in Phnom Penh as he probably hasn't been there and thought this location a novel idea at the time.
I cannot believe that AEG alone would have come up with this location in Asia.
Worse still is that he has chosen not to offer a proper apology to his loyal fans.

On the guesses people were making, whether they turn[ed] out right or wrong, making them and condemning Leonard and Robert in the process ~ when NOTHING was actually known at that point ~ is what I objected to.

This is the very kind of thing you're suggesting I'm doing when I speak of paying plane fares. I didn't say any of this and it's flaming of you ~ of all people, who so criticize anyone taking this tack ~ to do so:

I do not think for one second that HIS attitude would be "They should be grateful we even TRIED to give them Cambodia", or that people who didn't buy tickets in the first six months don't deserve a show now.

I never said anyone should be grateful that they even "TRIED to give them Cambodia." I've been talking only about waiting until the facts are in, give the benefit of the doubt until they are, and don't be so quick to condemn human error and be so insulting and condemning to the people who may have made one or some [and, at that point, still not knowing any of the facts... guesses are not FACTS... they're guesses]. And Robert's notice to the Forum still isn't here because HE apparently is waiting until HE knows all the facts before he does.

Your "first six months" reference is also and even more hyperbolic. The actual reference was 3 years... 250 concerts.
And NO ONE has said that someone "[doesn't] deserve a show now."

You had me in full agreement on this:

From all I've seen and heard of Robert (including some of the backstage footage) he is a true fan and a gentleman, and I admire him for his love of Leonard and for his love of good red wine.

... until you tacked on the love of good red wine, which seemed gratuitous, especially in this context; which caused me to reflect backward on all that had preceded it in your comment and wonder if it was gratuitous, as well. We all have our own bases for admiration, though, so whatever...


~ Lizzy

[Edited to remove the ironic comment made by Harriet; after realizing that this was the one she later commented on as being meant only ironically.]

Lizzy, I am done. The missionary zeal is rather too much, and we have bored people enough. The posts are there, and people can decide what to think for themselves, no matter how much you or I would wish otherwise. And I do not want my irritation with your intolerance of criticism to be seen as irritation with Leonard and Robert.

If you can't even see the comic irony in: "Anyone here who thinks I'm Robert, or even is sure I'm not, hasn't been here long. If they had been, they would unequivocally know I'm not," there is little hope.

You can drive away as many fans as you wish whose holy dedication you feel does not match yours, and good luck with that.

However I will point out that if you see a problem with that love of red wine, it's yours not mine.

**If you want to know where it comes from see Lorca's backstage sketch on the Songs from the Road DVD, and Robert's comments therein. And I know that Leonard himself, at least in the past, has drawn inspiration from it. As do I.

I have no issue with it at all. That's all yours.

---------------
**Apologies for my error here. I was mixing up my Robs. It is of course Rob Hallett who coaxed Leonard out of retirement from touring and is the huge fan who also loves red wine. I have no idea whether Robert Kory fits into the same category.

'And, I would hope that the person who posted Robert's email was circumspect enough prior to that decision to be pretty dang sure that this gesture wasn't being made just to him. If he did and it doesn't turn out to be a generalized one, then he's only planted a seed for further resentment. The official notice on the Forum may well not include all that detail, either. I'd like to think that for both those reasons, he got Robert's permission before posting Robert's email.'


~ Lizzy[/quote]


Lizzy i was the one who posted the email. legally speaking i have every right to post it as firstly it was clearly not confidential communication between us, and secondly it was a mass email that he sent to other fans, even cc-ing jarkko. i am all about transparency , and since u were going on and on about not knowing the real facts, i thought i would be doing the fans on this forum (those who didnt receive said email) a service by posting it. as for whether i should have gotten Robert's permission , you are clearly ignorant. if the email was the complete truth then surely i have every right to forward it on. what laws am i breaching in this case? i feel its only right that the fans get an answer that is long overdue, even though it was not an official notice made by Kory himself. i dont really understand why he has not made a official statement himself by now, seeing as he seems to have gathered enough facts with regards to the cancellation. but then again u seem to know him on a very personal level so maybe u have the answers

Instead of all this bad feeling between fans why doesn't everyone who has something to say send their remarks to those responsible for this mess

cminko@themekongsessions.com

It may not achieve anything in terms of getting the concert re-scheduled (indeed with their lack of experience they shouldn't be let anywhere near another concert)
but it would certainly let them know how true fans feel (not that they are probably bothered about that either)
and as a by-product it might just clog up their IT system.

Gary ~

My intolerance has to do with the wholesale bashing of Leonard and Robert as people. That won't change.

I took the comments about my being Robert as pure ironic comment; yet, when you reference them, it seemed you were addressing the [possible] perception of others in a more serious vein, so I responded accordingly.

Interesting, that you feel my defending Leonard and Robert would drive other fans away... perhaps, from this thread, but not from Leonard and not from the Forum. Too much other stuff going on for them that is VERY positive. This thread, on the other hand, has had a marked trait of negativity.

I have no problem with your or Leonard's or Robert's love of red wine... it was its incongruous insertion into your comment that stuck out like a sore thumb.

Yes, hopefully, others reading this thread will extend the principle parties in this matter some grace.


Gala ~

I'm not sure how "legally" or "laws" entered into this exchange, except by your insertion of them. My reference was to the potential breeding of more RESENTMENT... which is not a legal issue. It makes me think of the "spirit of the law" vs. the "letter of the law" ~ yet, even then, I hadn't spoken of legal issues, at all. It seems that NOT everyone has received this email, so it's possible that for whatever reason ~ particular people were extended this gracious offer and others, simply not ~ that list could pretty easily line up in my mind as to which ones might get that offer and which ones might not... but that's neither here nor there. If it went to EVERY fan here who purchased tickets, fine... but, it seems it didn't. I'm in no way suggesting that its content is UNtruth for those who received it. The point is that not everyone HAS received it, nor has an official statement been made.

Even then, in your posting of this email, you didn't give recognition of the gracious gestures within it... only to the 'technical' explanation of how this all came about. You might say that you didn't want to focus on those gestures, yet there's at least one you could have edited out, if you insisted on posting his email, thereby, 'scooping' his own statement, in the first place. At first, when I saw it, I had taken its content to be the same as his official statement would be. But, that's not necessarily, at all, which I came to realize, once I actually read it.

For sharing the facts with the Forum, the email you got could have done that very thing [given some germane facts], yet been edited until more was known on how all of this parses out and what might be done for corrective/goodwill measures on a broad scale... and leave it to Robert to have the content of his formal statement contain what he wants. [It may even turn out that all the elements in his email to you and others will BE in his official statement... but no one will know that until it appears.]

i feel its only right that the fans get an answer that is long overdue, even though it was not an official notice made by Kory himself. i dont really understand why he has not made a official statement himself by now, seeing as he seems to have gathered enough facts with regards to the cancellation.

Respectfully, Gala, I say that, regardless of what you feel is "only right," it is not up to you to make the determination of what fans ought to be given from Robert on this Forum. That would be Jarkko's place and role to do. It's up to Robert, only, to make a determination of when and through what avenue[s] to make his official notice/statement regarding this situation.

Why you don't really understand why he has not made an official statement himself by now is baffling, when he already included and specifically stated within his letter why he had not done so. He will go by his own time line on that and not anyone else's. When you say, "seeing as he seems to have gathered enough facts with regards to the cancellation," I can only wonder what makes you think that and how does your assessment of this enter into this? You have no way of determining this, at all. You don't know all the factors or where he's at in the process of this, and he specifically mentioned "damage," in this comment ~ one which he felt important enough to include in his first paragraph: "Second, I am planning to make a statement on the forum, but I am waiting to sort out all the damage." This is an entirely different arena than explaining to fans what happened. Normally, when someone gives you a private/personal heads-up on something in advance of something official, it's not acceptable to post it on the forum because of what you happen to feel is important for others to know. Had Robert wanted this to be his official statement, it would have been a lot less labour-intensive to have just sent it to Jarkko and asked that he post it. I don't know Robert on a very personal level, at all, but even if I did and HAD the answers, I would give Robert the respect and extend him the courtesy of allowing HIM to be the one to give them on whatever time line he chose. In fact, ANY other course OTHER than that would be totally out of the question. It's his statement to make.

And good idea... davidrichards.


~ Lizzy

Jeez

I have been browsing here for a bit. I too wanted to post my feelings about the cancellation. I don't think I will now.

Despite what "Lizzy" says I didn't see anyone attacking Mr Cohen or Mr Kory "as people". I saw them criticized because the concert failed. but I didn't see anyone say anything about them beyond a criticism of certain decisions. Some fans are too defensive. How can a thread about a concert cancellation be banned from "negativity".

As I wanted to say something similar, I had better say nothing.

Thank you lizzytysh for your kind comment.

It really does seem to me, as someone who obviously would not be travelling from Scotland to Cambodia, that the back and forward debate seems to miss one fundamental point, as Robert Kory explained in his email - NAMELY

Mekong Sessions were totally unequipped to deal with the promotion of a concert of this stature. As someone who has booked countless acts whilst at college (many, many years ago now) there is a requirement (almost always written into the contract) to provide what the act requires. Once I booked a very well known band (actually internationally known) and due to various factors they demanded all of the backline amplification and p.a. system to be supplied by us. We complied and the formal ball was a massive success. If Mekong Sessions don't realise that promoting a concert is not just about setting the price of the ticket and putting up a few posters then they shouldn't be in business, AND maybe AEG should do a bit more homework before entering into contractual negotiations with what appears to be a real amateur bunch!

Again as I said, if you don't like the situation then email Mekong Sessions and send their IT system into meltdown!!!

Don't blame the performers, they don't negotiate with promoters they "only" provide the entertainment we all enjoy!

One must remember that Mekong Sessions is not exactly "in the business". Chris Minko is a musician -- and Lenoard Cohen fan -- who runs an organization which benefits disabled people. In retrospect there are a lot of people who perhaps should have known better to give him as much responsibility as apparently was given for pulling this off. At this point I'm sure Rob Hallett wouldn't argue with that assessment.

Good grief Lizzy..

You say you are not associated with management in any way.

Assuming then that you are just a rabid fan with a passion for the ins and outs of concert management/crisis management etc, I think you'd still like us Phnom Penh guys to keep quiet about our unhappiness.

The best way to do that would be just to stop aggravating/upsetting people..

In fact things had kind of quietened down (and we were all contemplating the smiling countenance of the Cambodian King with pretty leaves behind his ear) before you starting stirring up the pot again.

I myself am trying to come to terms with what must be and letting go of my Leonard Cohen dream. I still have the music (I can listen to my CDs) so it can't be that bad.

As you surely love Leonard Cohen, why don't you try to spread the love instead?

The reasonable approach you took in what you've just said on this, davidrichards and jmudrick, was refreshing.

It sounds like Chris Minko is involved in other, positive endeavours. It's sad this concert couldn't work out. I hope the fans who are having to miss it will get another opportunity that they'll be able to follow up on.


~ Lizzy

Wow

I thought this thread was dead and buried and have had least had an entertaining 30 minutes reading the last few days posts.

I was not involved with any loss at PP (but was looking forward to Honolulu but had not bought flights!) and I have been fortunate enough to go to a lot of concerts but Lizzy and Harriet.....................

1 Every time you post all you are doing is digging a deeper hole and winding up those who lost out big time and have not had the courtesy of an apology

2 You seem to imply that to be a real Cohenite or afficiado it is necessary to believe Leonard and Robert can do no wrong (and walk on water?) and that no criticism should be allowed on a discussion forum. A bit like the Soviet Union circa 1965 or China 1999 methinks. is the definition of Cohenspeak mean only 24 hour undiluted praise allowed on this forum?

The people who are upset are upset because they were desperate to see Leonard - and thought they had entered into a contracual arrangement to do so and made commitments and expenditure in good faith.

The planning and cancellation was handled badly - Robert has confirmed this. Leonard could have mitigated their losses - if he had wanted to play PP he could have done so. Leonard wanted to play Vegas last year and Caesers initially said No - but it happened. Believe me if Leonard had said 'I want to play anyway to keep faith with the fans' Robert would have made it happen in some shape or form. Leonard may have many reasons why he preferred not to play and we must accept them. Perhaps he did not feel he could give a good quality acoustic set but I suspect even a Q and A would have worked as a sign of good faith.

I do find your suggestion that people who suffered a loss in South East Asia should hop on a plane and fly to North America and use one of Roberts comp tickets to be a bit much - do you know the cost of a return flight South East Asia to Los Angeles?

Believe me it is a lot more than a red eye from Florida to the West Coast and I think last year you posted you were not able to afford to fly from Florida to both Las Vegas and San Jose - or was it this year you posted you were only going to one concert? You cannot really think these people can just drop everything take more holiday and fly half way around the world! Really?

So please have have some respect for those who have suffered a disapointment - they are no less fans for not having posted thousands of times like you or by not going to multiple concerts like me.

And lets put it in perspective - Leonard is not a God who can do no wrong - just a unique genius and a remarkable performer who has good and bad days like all of us and Yes - sometimes mistakes are made for which he is ultimately responsible - but we love him nonetheless

I await the responding missive with interest!

Michael

Thank you. That is the most sensible, balanced comment I have read yet on this thread. I understand just a little of the hurt and sense of betrayal that the people with tickets to Phnom Penh are feeling as I went through a little of it myself after the Hawaii cancellation. Thankfully that was not my only chance of a concert but the opening stage of a trip to see the final shows in Vegas and I have the memory of my "postcards" in the past so I got over it. Nevertheless, having bought tickets and flights in good faith I still felt somewhat abused and disrespected by the Cohen organisation and just for a while I lost interest so I cannot imagine how people like Gary must have felt. It is a great shame that others weighed in to tell them ...... well, all sorts of things instead of letting them vent their anger and disappointment.

It is quite clear that someone dropped the ball on PP (and also on Hawaii, which was similarly cancelled for "insurmountable logistical reasons"). It is way over simplistic to just blame the local promoter. Everyone involved - Chris Minko, AEG, Robert, even Leonard - must take some responsibility. It is the lack of information and "owning up" that hurts. However, no one likes to admit that they messed up and the potential for legal proceedings often mean this will never happen.

Why didn't people go to one of the earlier shows in Europe, Australia, New Zealand, North America some time over the past 3 years? Well I would hazard a guess that a lot of long term fans based in Asia were simply unaware that Leonard was touring again until Phnom Penh was announced. Many of us said that we would travel to the other ends of the world if only Leonard would do just one more concert but after 15 years or so we had more or less stopped looking for the miracle to happen. I doubt if news of the tour hit the Asian press until Phnom Penh was announced and not everyone is an avid reader of the Leonard Cohen Forum and Files.

I know of one fan who has cut his losses and hurriedly arranged travel to Australia to catch a show and maybe others will follow but you're right: generous as Robert's ticket offer appears to be, it is also a little bit of an empty gesture as the majority of people cannot run to a second trip, especially after their losses on PP. I am surprised that Lizzy, who is normally so considered and empathetic in her posts, did not see this.

Wendy