leonardcohenforum.com

Thank you Marie and Michelle, great job. There are always people that are very devious, and it is really sad. So glad you got them. Keep up the good work, I love the Forum, there are so many good things that outweigh the bad.

It could that those who try to sell presale passwords are violating copyright laws. The fact that information is provided on a freely accessible website does not mean you can just take it and sell it. It also illegal in some cases to provide links to a website site than contains material that is protected by copyright. Perhaps this is something Jarkko or EAG or Leonard’s management could investigate.
The only way to stop people who engage themselves in these kind immoral activities is by hitting them with a penalty that is bigger than the profit they are making.

I LOVE that thought, Franks!

ladydi wrote:Excellent sleuthing. Many thanks to Marie, Michelle Rice, and any others involved!

Yes great work all ... will we get the story at some point?


Lindy

Dear tcashin07 ~

First ~ welcome to the Forum. I see that you've just recently joined and have posted twice and last visited on Wednesday. And that you identify yourself as a veterinarian, which can definitely keep you busy doing great things. Those things are encouraging. Since it keeps lingering on my mind, however, I've decided to get it off my mind and respond to your posting. Your manner in posting was very respectful and appropriate, but it's the content that bothered me for several reasons. My comments are below your copied & pasted posting [didn't want to have to keep flipping back a page].

Scocoh: I understand your frustration. The current situation is certainly flawed, but your proposed solution is equally flawed. It probably would lead to a few less touts gaining access to tickets for resale, but most touts are not complete fools so if the market for LC tickets is profitable enough then they will easily jump through a tiny little hoop to gain access to the market, given advanced notice that the hoop obstacle is in place. Remember, on the internet nobody knows you're a dog! Added problems arise as you raise the hoop higher off the ground; now you're potentially punishing those who regularly read and browse the forum/files but refrain from posting. You'd also be forcing users to make posts until they reach the threshold in order to obtain benefits. This would lead to many frivolous posts by users who rather would not be posting, bringing down the overall average quality of the forum posts (which I must say, is currently quite impressive ) Music fans come in all shapes and colours, and only some of them express their enthusiasm through direct regular participation in an internet forum. Many true fans live extremely busy lives and don't have time for internet forums. These are just a few of the problems with your proposed solution. It's a problem in need of a solution, but it's a very tricky problem and so something so simple as a member post requirement may cause more problems than it fixes. Do you really want to risk punishing a lot of fans in order to potentially punish a hundred ticket scalpers?
These forum presales give busy fans a second chance to get tickets, if they are savvy enough fans to search the webs and find out about the presale ahead of time. That's a good thing, and yes it will be exploited by some but overall I believe it remains a good thing.

Cheers

Yes, Scocoh is frustrated and for good reason. After reading your posting, I wanted to acknowledge that you may be a totally and perfectly legitimate fan of Leonard's; and hopefully you are. I want that fact to underscore everything I'm saying here, because our preferred belief is that EVERYONE who participates in the pre-sale is all of that. We are happy and grateful when people who love Leonard come forward, and to those who have only recently learned of Leonard and become fans. It's only in these ways that Leonard's music and work will last. We know it will because it's timeless; however, people who love it are a necessary part of that mix.

We know that touts aren't complete fools and scocoh wasn't suggesting that they were; and I don't feel that his proposed solution is equally flawed to the current situation. We aren't complete fools here, either, and we'd be able to see through 30 continuous, throw-away postings within a VERY brief period preceding a pre-sale, the same as we can see through people joining just before a pre-sale and posing questions that make it clear that they haven't been here right along, or even any reasonable lack of time.

You are probably very busy; but it's important to stress and others to understand that so are the vast majority of contributors to this forum! That starts with the two primary people who run this site... Jarkko and Marie... and continues through the moderators and the long-term, mid-term, and relatively short-term members who contribute here. However, starting somewhere is a necessary step in addressing any problem. By the way, our Forum has its share of frivolous posts by those who post.

Many true fans live extremely busy lives and don't have time for internet forums. These are just a few of the problems with your proposed solution.

This is true and scocoh is aware of it. As I said, there are many true fans who live extremely busy lives and are still members of and contribute to this forum, and attend events, gatherings, meet-ups, and concerts, as well. This is not to suggest that these actions are necessary; however, it's a reality that these actions are real, in spite of their busy lives. Even despite your own very busy life, you still found time to join the Forum and comment on two threads [with this posting on this one being somewhat long and detailed]... and both showing degrees of thoughtful analysis.

There have been others who have joined at pre-sale time, got tickets through the pre-sale, and remained here to varying degrees and involved themselves in the various aspects available. One notable example of someone who read the forum, but did not contribute, still attended a wide variety of gatherings and made her interest in Leonard very well known. Again, not suggesting that you must... but saying that we understand that being a contributing member of this forum is a be-all, end-all status to show genuine interest in Leonard's work.

Having a minimum number of postings would not create more problems than it solves. Yes, it would be worth it to run a defense line against a hundred ticket scalpers and touts. There truly are only a limited number of truly great seats.

Added problems arise as you raise the hoop higher off the ground; now you're potentially punishing those who regularly read and browse the forum/files but refrain from posting.

We are also able to recognize frivolous postings as much as anyone can.

These forum presales give busy fans a second chance to get tickets, if they are savvy enough fans to search the webs and find out about the presale ahead of time. That's a good thing, and yes it will be exploited by some but overall I believe it remains a good thing.

Actually, I have to disagree with you on this. I don't agree that someone savvy enough to search the webs and find out about the pre-sale ahead of time is a good thing.

I'm baffled by the fact that someone who is clearly as intelligent as you and willing and compelled to use your time to join and post regarding this particular tour's set of pre-sales, could have been reading this forum right along and not have felt at least equally [and actually more so] compelled to join and comment on anything related to Leonard or life in general. You are not so shy as to not be able or unwilling to express your opinions where you have them.

The people that these pre-sales were originally [and, still, parenthetically] intended to benefit were the ones who searched the webs to find out about Leonard Cohen... and came here and joined in in their various ways as a result. Leonard has long appreciated this forum and the others [including Marie's] dedicated to him and his work, and the many ways they kept him and his music alive during times when he honestly believed he would not tour again. When he decided to tour again, the pre-sales emerged as a means of thanking people for their dedication. Just as you found the time to comment in regard to the pre-sales [with your other questions regarding VIP packages being ones that would have been answered, via postings on previous pre-sales for prior concert tours], we have found Leonard and his work equally COMPELLING, to where we have commented on various threads regarding these. There are multiple opportunities to do so.

Do you really want to risk punishing a lot of fans in order to potentially punish a hundred ticket scalpers?

My simple answer to this is yes. These pre-sales have never been about punishing anyone; but, if punishment IS an issue, the ones that WE don't want punished are the lot of fans for whom these pre-sales were originally [and continue to be] intended. The Forum members. Not those who decide they want to go see Leonard and use their time to surf the net looking for better seats to do so, when they never used their time to find this Forum and join it.

The administrator and other key people have tried to build in ways to foil the touts.

Music fans come in all shapes and colours, and only some of them express their enthusiasm through direct regular participation in an internet forum.

We're also very aware of the all shapes and colours of music fans [and have a section devoted to discussions of other musicians], and reading this forum makes that crystal clear.

The public sales are inherently intended for the general population, with the presumption that the people ARE fans [or about to become fans] ~ after all, he's about to give concerts and tickets must be available for the audience to happen. But the pre-sales are intended for the already existing Leonard Cohen fans, who have prioritized their lives to include this Forum. Your comments give the impression that you may or may not have been reading this forum right along [weighted more heavily to the side of your recently having begun to do so]; that you were savvy enough to have surfed the net, looking for advantageous ticket access; and that you feel that the pre-sales are intended for anyone savvy enough to have done so.

We don't want to discourage newcomers, and some from the past have turned out to be phenomenal fans and very tangibly contributory to this forum and in myriad other ways. Pre-sales, in general, whether they're fan club- or forum-based, are intended to 'thank' those people who have taken their time that could have been used elsewhere to keep something going that promotes/supports a particular artist. With that in mind, these pre-sales [by definition], are intended for Leonard Cohen fans who, more specifically, have visibly to others here manifested their fandom in various ways already... and, in this case, by joining this Forum and/or participated in fan-based activities, not joined and become visible just to access better tickets.


Cheers,
With respect and concern,
Lizzy

Couldn't this problem (scalpers using passwords) be stopped, or at least mitigated, by having purchasers name printed on tickets (as is done for airline tickets)? Purchaser's name/address would be on all tickets he/she has purchased, then when entering event, they check ID for that person and let in his group. Thus, scalpers could not operate, because they do not know names of users when they buy.

Two drawbacks and one additional plus:

Drawback--what if purchaser is not attending concert? Highly unlikely situation, how often does someone purchase tickets to a concert they are not attending? But for those few cases, seller could allow 7 days for purchaser to contact seller online and provide name(s) of attendees.

Drawback--what if a medical problem arises, or something else occurs that makes purchaser unable to attend? Allow "hardship" re-registration of tickets with hardship proof required by seller.

Additional advantage--once systems are set up to have names/addresses printed on tickets, process of mailing tickets would likely be more efficient than now where someone obviously has to match printed tickets to orders and mail.

I am sure there could be other minor problems, but wouldn't this tend to work? Let me know what I have overlooked.

4

I totally agree with you, 4.

When I had to resort to the phone for the Tampa tickets, the phone rep took my mailing information at the same time [presuming she'd be mailing the tickets to me].

There ARE ways to address the touts.

its4inthemorning wrote:Drawback--what if purchaser is not attending concert? Highly unlikely situation, how often does someone purchase tickets to a concert they are not attending? But for those few cases, seller could allow 7 days for purchaser to contact seller online and provide name(s) of attendees.

4

Pretty often in all honesty. Plans change, medical situations and family crises etc intervene. If you have a ticket you cannot use you want to try and recover what you paid for it - and there are always people who are looking for tickets who are delighted to find they can get a great seat to a sold out or near sold out show. You only have to look at our Find, Sell or Swap tickets threads to understand this - and that's just Leonard Cohen tickets. There is absolutely nothing wrong with selling or buying tickets at cost in my book.

But who would pay for the extra box office or ticket agency staff needed to administer an official ticket exchange programme (though Ticketmaster do now seem to provide a Ticket Transfer system for shows in New York - maybe it's a legal requirement there? The fees are high enough)? And who will pay for the extra security staff needed to check ID? Most of Leonard's shows in 2012 started at least 15 minutes late because of the long lines of people still waiting to get in to the venue at official show time. Imagine how bad it would be if door staff had to check ID as well as bags etc. It's just not practical. Tom Waits tried to operate this type of system a couple of years back - and it didn't work. It caused chaos and it didn't stop the touts and scalpers at all. They just bought tickets in pairs and provided the name of their purchaser to the ticket sellers by the appointed date. All this was explained at length in their eBay listings and the secondary market for Tom Waits tickets was as lively as ever.

BTW Most tickets do have the purchaser's name printed on them. It just that ID is not checked for the reason set out above. I'm all for stopping the touts but this is not the way to do it.

Wendy

I've no time to go into details - besides, these problems and the same suggested but unrealistic solutions have been discussed several times in the early phases of Leonard's World Tours - but want to underline that the software we are using on this Forum does NOT give us any option to categorize members in the way suggested here even if we wanted. And we don't want. The final question would always be: how do you describe an active fan? We have plenty of members who don't write here but always follow the discussions, contribute to The Files, come to - and even organize - Events, meetups, and so on. Are they in some way worse fans than members who have posted 30 messages here in the last 10 years?

Hi Jarkko ~

They're certainly not worse or lesser, at all, than those who post 30+ times to qualify. My point is that a pre-sale loses its original or even secondary meaning and just becomes the general sale a few days earlier, if all that a person has to do to 'qualify' is surf the net for where to find and how to qualify for the pre-sale passwords or, worse yet, pay to get it, in order to join the pre-sale. At that point, it has simply become a general sale a few days earlier, and all the hard work for those making it happen becomes moot because the general public [vs. forum members/participating fans] is already participating at the pre-sale point.

The delineations I made for 'active' fans encompassed everything you listed beyond participating in the forum. At some point it seems to become a matter of why have a pre-sale vs. just a general sale... [though, I think that's a bit hyperbolic the other direction... because many here do and have benefited at the pre-sale level]. Even so, it seems to be moving in the direction of pre-sale = general sale.

Hi Wendy ~ When you register on a purchasing website and input your financial information, you have to include your real name and address, so the information is already there, so doesn't require extra staff.


~ Lizzy

Most people at any concert are just local people who have absolutely no idea of any presales. They see an ad in their newspaper, or hear about the concert in the radio, go to the box office and buy tickets. If the seating capacity is say 15.000, one thousand may have got their tickets through various presales (like ours, Amex, AEG, friends of local venue etc). All the others have booked after the general sale has opened. So, in my humble opinion, there is a BIG difference between a presale and the general sale.

lizzytysh wrote:Hi Wendy ~ When you register on a purchasing website and input your financial information, you have to include your real name and address, so the information is already there, so doesn't require extra staff.

~ Lizzy

Hi Lizzy

Yes - I agree. But I was referring to the extra staff that would be needed if box offices or ticket agents were to required operate an official ticket exchange in the way 4 suggests.

W

Hi Jarkko ~

Since I already feel a bit like I'm 'sassing' my 'Dad' [even though my comments were generated simply out of differing views], I'll say that I hope you're right, and it sounds like you could be. With the intensity of it all here around the pre-sale times, it may feel 'larger' than it actually is... and the people you deal with definitely [I'd think] have a better idea in numbers/percentages how many tickets are sold via each category.


Hi Wendy ~

I've actually been surprised at how some are require the credit card and then ask for it. I always try to go early and show them both.


To you both ~

So, maybe this is a situation where all's well that ends well .



~ Lizzy

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If you've got people selling passwords on ebay and websites dedicated to getting presale password info then there is a problem. I was just throwing out an idea that might help alleviate that problem.The 30 post suggestion was merely one idea. And it was an idea which I hesitated to post because so many get their feathers easily ruffled on this subject and suggestions of that sort tend to give the impression of not being appreciative of the people who do so much for us. (Indeed, I sense exasperation from Jarkko in his responses.)

I only suggested the idea, but I find it goofy to call a 30 post threshold "punishment". People must already register in order to see the presale link (an effective deterrent)-- Is that also "punishment"? No-- it's an effective step of weeding out problems. And the problem of active participants who don't post is easily solved by contacting people they already know from all their non-forum participation.

And not every faker is a professional tout working for the big English resellers. There are a lot of people who do it part time as a side job. These types are more easily weeded out.

But look--- Overall, I'm very very happy with the presale situation. It's worked out for me and hundreds of others extremely well.

Just for discussion-- As I said in my earlier post there is really one question: Why is there a presale? Is it to help the "loyal" fans or is it a marketing strategy? Judging by all the links from official sources to the presale it has become more of a marketing strategy-- albeit one which works out very well for those who stay informed.

And soon it all won't matter anyway-- The bottom line is that this all won't go on forever. There will likely be only one more US tour after this particular one-- IF we are lucky. And like the weird grousing about the VIP packages from people who can't even buy them, the complaints about the cost of tickets, the complaints about venues... Soon and very soon we will be left with only tour memories and not tours.

One day soon we will look back with fondness on the time we were lucky enough to be in the position to complain about ticket scalpers snaking tickets to a Leonard Cohen show.

These people are petty criminals ( though they probably aren't breaking any laws!)
They will always find a way !

I'm probably one of the few forum members going to the concert in the relatively obscure town of St john , new brunswick.Though i live in the uk but have close family in the province .
I bought great ( non vip) front row seats in the presale as soon as the link became active. Several hours later i checked out of curiousity what seats were still available , and found front row seats still available! This implies not only that very few forum members bought seats but also , obviously ,that no one else ( touts and other profiteering secondary sellers ) was taking advantage .

We might get 'parasites' ( if that's the right term!)buying tickets through the forum or trying to sell passwords for profit at the higher profile gigs , and i fear this will happen in the UK,but it is heartening to know this doesn't always happen !

I hope that in the general sale st john is sold out and that many folks of new brunswick get to see and be amazed at Leonard perhaps for the first time and without having to pay inflated prices .