Lighting:
I'm astonished by your statements. I have the complete discography of Brassens and Brel, and saying Barbara is less musical is, certainly, a great mistake. One thing is that you don't like her; this is right, but objetively she is better than her partners; brel, for example, has great musical failures and his compositive manners are those of the sixties; barbara's are atemporal. So please separate things: if your don't like it don't listen to it, but don't tell so many things that are wrong (comparisons with Callas, Dietrich, etc).
She is not well known outside french countries cause she speaks with a great melancholy. And the "warbly voice"; it is an insult: listen to the "Gauguin": is this cavern a "warbly voice"? Don't make me laugh and be more respectful to the work of a truly artist.
Antonio
relation Cohen-chansonniers, does Cohen know Barbara's work
Lighting says Barbara's work is diffitult to understand, rather more than her contemporaries; it could be true, because she speaks with women's words, and in a world of men this way of express feelings is often misandertood; she traces her own path with her own inner language; if you don't like it, it's a question of aesthetics; her songs are very personal conffessions. But she has a lot of things to say: explore the lyrics of "le soleil noir", "le mal de vivre". Is this having not much to say? Of course she is not a poet like Cohen but she speaks from her intuition in an almost coleric way, impressive, confesional, and true.
Maybe I have been in a mistake talking here of these subject
sorry
Maybe I have been in a mistake talking here of these subject
sorry
Maybe if I were French I would feel the same way you do. I did not mean to insult her or you for liking her, only to say that I have the LP Le Soleil Noir, am familiar with the songs you refer to, and am not as moved by them as, say, "Chanson pour L'Auvergnat" my favorite French chanson at the moment. People write love songs all the time but who writes songs about human kindness? I have been immersed in the works of Jacques Brel for several years and find him the most musical, most dramatic and lyrical chansonnier. There is an internet poll of "Les Plus Belles Chansons" and Ne Me Quitte Pas is number one. L'Aigle Noir is there a bit lower, I forget where, but it's through this poll that I encountered the song. Most Americans have not heard it.
I didn't say Barbara was a fashion, a French woman living here whom I know said that. She prefer Dylan.
I didn't know that Barbara was hard to understand because she was a woman. That is hard to understand because I am a woman.
I didn't say Barbara was a fashion, a French woman living here whom I know said that. She prefer Dylan.
I didn't know that Barbara was hard to understand because she was a woman. That is hard to understand because I am a woman.
Hi Antonio ~
I look forward to hearing Barbara and, from all of your descriptions, am quite certain I will love her singing.
In her latest posting, Lightning has explained her own perspective on it very well.
~ Lizzy
Of course it's not a mistake, and you should not even consider feeling sorry for having brought up Barbara and talked about her and her singing. Please keep doing that, as it occurs and appeals to you. You only cannot count on everyone's agreeing. As you can see, there's already disagreement as to Cohen/Dylan, with some have decidedly positive views and others decidedly negative, and everything in between. It's just the nature of things.Maybe I have been in a mistake talking here of these subject
sorry
I look forward to hearing Barbara and, from all of your descriptions, am quite certain I will love her singing.
In her latest posting, Lightning has explained her own perspective on it very well.
~ Lizzy
Thanks Lightning for your comments, that throw clarity over your statements. Of course I also love the work of Brassens and Brel, but don't forget Barbara also has songs about "human kindness": Perlimpinpin, Göttingen, even Le mal de vivre is an exposition of the painful mood in that we live and how to learn to share.
Of course Brel is the best known of french singers: he is more direct, but I find his fame owes a lot to the simplicity of musical structures (lots of covers from pop groups). Barbara is more ambigous, more indirect. The difference beetween them could be te same as beetween Rachmaninov and Bartók (it's not a good example, but...). I say this as a musicologist.
To finish, I quote Brel's words about Barbara: "She is a woman you rarely find in life. A sort of princess. A knight, if you can decline this word in feminine, with all the bravery and strangeness that this mean".
Of course Brel is the best known of french singers: he is more direct, but I find his fame owes a lot to the simplicity of musical structures (lots of covers from pop groups). Barbara is more ambigous, more indirect. The difference beetween them could be te same as beetween Rachmaninov and Bartók (it's not a good example, but...). I say this as a musicologist.
To finish, I quote Brel's words about Barbara: "She is a woman you rarely find in life. A sort of princess. A knight, if you can decline this word in feminine, with all the bravery and strangeness that this mean".
Antonio,
Maybe if I get back to translating Barbara, I will beg for your help. As I recall I got lost on some of the "kindness" songs you mentioned.
I don't think Brel derived his inspiration from sixties pop as he hated it. He only listened to classical music and his accompaniment and collaborators, François Rauber and Gérard Jouannest, were classical musicians.He cites Ravel, Debussy, Schubert, Bizet, Mussorgsky, and others as inspiration. He often travelled with a full orchestra and never used a drum. He had a great admiration for Barbara which is why he cast her as leading lady, femme fatale who broke his heart and drove him to suicide, in his movie Franz.
I myself am glad to get away from American rock and folk for a while am enjoying this musical trip to France.
Maybe if I get back to translating Barbara, I will beg for your help. As I recall I got lost on some of the "kindness" songs you mentioned.
I don't think Brel derived his inspiration from sixties pop as he hated it. He only listened to classical music and his accompaniment and collaborators, François Rauber and Gérard Jouannest, were classical musicians.He cites Ravel, Debussy, Schubert, Bizet, Mussorgsky, and others as inspiration. He often travelled with a full orchestra and never used a drum. He had a great admiration for Barbara which is why he cast her as leading lady, femme fatale who broke his heart and drove him to suicide, in his movie Franz.
I myself am glad to get away from American rock and folk for a while am enjoying this musical trip to France.
Lightning:
I'll try to be more precise: of course Brel does not found inspiration in the pop of the sixties; he was influenced by the "serious" songwriters of his time, not by pop icons. What I said is that the general tone of his music, his orquestrations and his way of singning is tipical from a certain type of chanson in that years. His pianist and co-writer, Gérard Jouannest, is strongly influenced by Rachmaninov, you can see it in the crescendos, the orquestration and the lirical musical themes (Mon enfance); that contrutes to reinforce Brel's romanticism. I think the music of Brel is more "exportable" because his structures are easy to recognize. But I have a great admiration for him. Do you know the song "Gauguin", wich Barbara wrote in his memory? A really great song, but "uneasy" to hear with his formal arabesques. I have translated Barbara's songs into Spanish, but I'm not keen enough in English; I'll try.
I'll try to be more precise: of course Brel does not found inspiration in the pop of the sixties; he was influenced by the "serious" songwriters of his time, not by pop icons. What I said is that the general tone of his music, his orquestrations and his way of singning is tipical from a certain type of chanson in that years. His pianist and co-writer, Gérard Jouannest, is strongly influenced by Rachmaninov, you can see it in the crescendos, the orquestration and the lirical musical themes (Mon enfance); that contrutes to reinforce Brel's romanticism. I think the music of Brel is more "exportable" because his structures are easy to recognize. But I have a great admiration for him. Do you know the song "Gauguin", wich Barbara wrote in his memory? A really great song, but "uneasy" to hear with his formal arabesques. I have translated Barbara's songs into Spanish, but I'm not keen enough in English; I'll try.
Lightning:
another commentary concerning Brel's music. You said he did't use drums and worked with orchestra. Well, you can hear clearly percussion and drum sections in the songs: "Mathilde", "Au suivant", "La chanson de Jacky", "Vesoul", "Le moribond", "Bruxelles", Les bourgeois", and so many others. His music is clearly emphatic and strong, what makes him very popular. I just suggest Barbara's musical discourse is more subtle, not neccesarily better; the melodic lines are flexible and have a great formal freedom ("Gauguin", "Fatigue", "Il automne", "A peine"). On the other hand, here there are Barbara's quotes over Brel and Brassens: "For me the man who is more complete is Brel, cause he is a great songwriter but, over all, a tremendous scenic presence. He is a man of scene. The man who compose the best in France is Mr Brassens; but unless I cry when I see him on stage, he does not make an show, but a recital"
another commentary concerning Brel's music. You said he did't use drums and worked with orchestra. Well, you can hear clearly percussion and drum sections in the songs: "Mathilde", "Au suivant", "La chanson de Jacky", "Vesoul", "Le moribond", "Bruxelles", Les bourgeois", and so many others. His music is clearly emphatic and strong, what makes him very popular. I just suggest Barbara's musical discourse is more subtle, not neccesarily better; the melodic lines are flexible and have a great formal freedom ("Gauguin", "Fatigue", "Il automne", "A peine"). On the other hand, here there are Barbara's quotes over Brel and Brassens: "For me the man who is more complete is Brel, cause he is a great songwriter but, over all, a tremendous scenic presence. He is a man of scene. The man who compose the best in France is Mr Brassens; but unless I cry when I see him on stage, he does not make an show, but a recital"
Gaugin lyrics
I hear the drum beats softly in the background- they aren't anything like the African ones I'm used to in rock or reggae. Wonder who gave me the idea they weren't there. In a military song like Au Suivant they are a necessity.
Here is the song Barbara wrote as memorial for Jacques Brel. She played Léonie his movie and signs off by that name. I never heard her sing it but I've seen these words before. She introduces Brel to Gaugin who rests in the same cemetary in Hiva Oa, the Marquesas Islands, French Polynesia and imagines the influence the two immortal artists will have on each other, Brel, man of the north with its winds and fog, and Gaugin immersed the vivid colors and sensuality of Polynesia. She regrets losing him but he will sing forever for her.
Barbara
Gauguin (Lettre à Jacques Brel) Paroles et Musique: Barbara
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Il pleut sur l'île d'Hiva-Oa.
Le vent, sur les longs arbres verts
Jette des sables d'ocre mouillés.
Il pleut sur un ciel de corail
Comme une pluie venue du Nord
Qui délave les ocres rouges
Et les bleus-violets de Gauguin.
Il pleut.
Les Marquises sont devenues grises.
Le Zéphir est un vent du Nord,
Ce matin-là,
Sur l'île qui sommeille encore.
Il a dû s'étonner, Gauguin,
Quand ses femmes aux yeux de velours
Ont pleuré des larmes de pluie
Qui venaient de la mer du Nord.
Il a dû s'étonner, Gauguin,
Comme un grand danseur fatigué
Avec ton regard de l'enfance.
Bonjour monsieur Gauguin.
Faites-moi place.
Je suis un voyageur lointain.
J'arrive des brumes du Nord
Et je viens dormir au soleil.
Faites-moi place.
Tu sais,
Ce n'est pas que tu sois parti
Qui m'importe.
D'ailleurs, tu n'es jamais parti.
Ce n'est pas que tu ne chantes plus
Qui m'importe.
D'ailleurs, pour moi, tu chantes encore,
Mais penser qu'un jour,
Les vents que tu aimais
Te devenaient contraire,
Penser
Que plus jamais
Tu ne navigueras
Ni le ciel ni la mer,
Plus jamais, en avril,
Toucher le lilas blanc,
Plus jamais voir le ciel
Au-dessus du canal.
Mais qui peut dire ?
Moi qui te connais bien,
Je suis sûre qu'aujourd'hui
Tu caresses les seins
Des femmes de Gauguin
Et qu'il peint Amsterdam.
Vous regardez ensemble
Se lever le soleil
Au-dessus des lagunes
Où galopent des chevaux blancs
Et ton rire me parvient,
En cascade, en torrent
Et traverse la mer
Et le ciel et les vents
Et ta voix chante encore.
Il a dû s'étonner, Gauguin,
Quand ses femmes aux yeux de velours
Ont pleuré des larmes de pluie
Qui venaient de la mer du Nord.
Il a dû s'étonner, Gauguin.
Souvent, je pense à toi
Qui a longé les dunes
Et traversé le Nord
Pour aller dormir au soleil,
Là-bas, sous un ciel de corail.
C'était ta volonté.
Sois bien.
Dors bien.
Souvent, je pense à toi.
Je signe Léonie.
Toi, tu sais qui je suis,
Dors bien.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is the song Barbara wrote as memorial for Jacques Brel. She played Léonie his movie and signs off by that name. I never heard her sing it but I've seen these words before. She introduces Brel to Gaugin who rests in the same cemetary in Hiva Oa, the Marquesas Islands, French Polynesia and imagines the influence the two immortal artists will have on each other, Brel, man of the north with its winds and fog, and Gaugin immersed the vivid colors and sensuality of Polynesia. She regrets losing him but he will sing forever for her.
Barbara
Gauguin (Lettre à Jacques Brel) Paroles et Musique: Barbara
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Il pleut sur l'île d'Hiva-Oa.
Le vent, sur les longs arbres verts
Jette des sables d'ocre mouillés.
Il pleut sur un ciel de corail
Comme une pluie venue du Nord
Qui délave les ocres rouges
Et les bleus-violets de Gauguin.
Il pleut.
Les Marquises sont devenues grises.
Le Zéphir est un vent du Nord,
Ce matin-là,
Sur l'île qui sommeille encore.
Il a dû s'étonner, Gauguin,
Quand ses femmes aux yeux de velours
Ont pleuré des larmes de pluie
Qui venaient de la mer du Nord.
Il a dû s'étonner, Gauguin,
Comme un grand danseur fatigué
Avec ton regard de l'enfance.
Bonjour monsieur Gauguin.
Faites-moi place.
Je suis un voyageur lointain.
J'arrive des brumes du Nord
Et je viens dormir au soleil.
Faites-moi place.
Tu sais,
Ce n'est pas que tu sois parti
Qui m'importe.
D'ailleurs, tu n'es jamais parti.
Ce n'est pas que tu ne chantes plus
Qui m'importe.
D'ailleurs, pour moi, tu chantes encore,
Mais penser qu'un jour,
Les vents que tu aimais
Te devenaient contraire,
Penser
Que plus jamais
Tu ne navigueras
Ni le ciel ni la mer,
Plus jamais, en avril,
Toucher le lilas blanc,
Plus jamais voir le ciel
Au-dessus du canal.
Mais qui peut dire ?
Moi qui te connais bien,
Je suis sûre qu'aujourd'hui
Tu caresses les seins
Des femmes de Gauguin
Et qu'il peint Amsterdam.
Vous regardez ensemble
Se lever le soleil
Au-dessus des lagunes
Où galopent des chevaux blancs
Et ton rire me parvient,
En cascade, en torrent
Et traverse la mer
Et le ciel et les vents
Et ta voix chante encore.
Il a dû s'étonner, Gauguin,
Quand ses femmes aux yeux de velours
Ont pleuré des larmes de pluie
Qui venaient de la mer du Nord.
Il a dû s'étonner, Gauguin.
Souvent, je pense à toi
Qui a longé les dunes
Et traversé le Nord
Pour aller dormir au soleil,
Là-bas, sous un ciel de corail.
C'était ta volonté.
Sois bien.
Dors bien.
Souvent, je pense à toi.
Je signe Léonie.
Toi, tu sais qui je suis,
Dors bien.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lightning and Lizzytish; I have found this in Wikipedia; maybe I'm reiterative, but this is another opinion concerning the subject:
"It has been a sad fact that Barbara and her music are almost completely unknown in the English-speaking world, unlike Edith Piaf, arguably the only other comparable great French female singer, who is a household name around the world and has had several UK and American hits. Yet her voice, many would say, is much purer and more musical than the powerful tones of the little sparrow, and her songs far more poignant and melodic - quite a claim considering the marvellous melodies created by Piaf. There is a simple sophistication and clarity about Barbara's singing which draws the listener into a seldom accessed world of delicate, exquisite and uplifting emotion. At her best, her music is sublime. It is probably true to say that Barbara is the last major French talent to remain undiscovered outside the French-speaking world."
Hope the New Year has started well!
"It has been a sad fact that Barbara and her music are almost completely unknown in the English-speaking world, unlike Edith Piaf, arguably the only other comparable great French female singer, who is a household name around the world and has had several UK and American hits. Yet her voice, many would say, is much purer and more musical than the powerful tones of the little sparrow, and her songs far more poignant and melodic - quite a claim considering the marvellous melodies created by Piaf. There is a simple sophistication and clarity about Barbara's singing which draws the listener into a seldom accessed world of delicate, exquisite and uplifting emotion. At her best, her music is sublime. It is probably true to say that Barbara is the last major French talent to remain undiscovered outside the French-speaking world."
Hope the New Year has started well!