my book

This is for your own works!!!
Huck
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Post by Huck »

hello hello,

Laurie, if you re-read my original post you'll see i did include a link to my personal site - rainoverbouville.co.uk. i could have left it at that, i suppose, but the point of the post was the publication of my book. as for biting the bullet and posting a poem of mine in a new thread, i have to say i am dubious about the critique it might receive considering the escalation of this argument! i have set myself up for a drubbing.

Kush and Linda, thanks for the welcome. to his credit, Heretic is probably a sobering voice on this board. and yes, my writing can always be better; poetry is a process, not a conclusion, as i'm sure you all know. my site and book are a kind of personal experiment - i put it all out there for the world to see, warts n all, and hopefully i'll learn and improve.

Partisan, you're exactly right; i could have bothered to read the guidelines. forgive my zeal to champion my own product! :oops:
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Partisan
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Post by Partisan »

Huck some people on this board confuse me with Heretic. I have no idea why. Do you?

p.
Alan Alda
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Post by Alan Alda »

Huck~
I don't want to argue. No. You did not 'link' your website. You gave the site's name but didn't make it a clickable link like you did the 'buy the book site.' That was my point.

It seems like 19 years ago, I simply asked you to share what you considered your best work. I happen to be interested in poetry and not so much in site guidelines.

L
I simply cannot see where there is to get to. Plath
Even despots have access to 'Welcome' mats. Me
Desperation is easily confused with enthusiasm. Me
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Byron
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Post by Byron »

Huck, welcome.

It's very simple. Post a poem and we'll have a look at it. :)
"Bipolar is a roller-coaster ride without a seat belt. One day you're flying with the fireworks; for the next month you're being scraped off the trolley" I said that.
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Kush
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Post by Kush »

Huck some people on this board confuse me with Heretic. I have no idea why. Do you?

p.

Must be the sunny disposition both you guys have. Spreading joy and sweetness whichever thread you go to.
Huck
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Post by Huck »

Partisan, i have no idea. i am a tenderfoot, remember. :?

Laurie, you are being just a little pedantic, don't you think? there is next to no difference between posting an address and posting a link, and your average forum user is perfectly capable of copying and pasting the former into the nav bar.

Byron, hello and thanks. :)

ok, i am going to stop dodging, and post a poem. i have nothing to lose but my dignity. i don't know if it's necessarily my best, but it's...good? heh, see below.
Huck
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Post by Huck »

The Pause


Ocean-envious of the sixteen-year-olds
streaming coolly onto campus
on a mid-week morning,
but why envy?
I am to them as a reptile is
to a sobering amphibian.
I suppose it must be the manifest memory
conferred unconsciously
in the Morse code of their steps:

when I was their age I met new peers
who saw not with eyes,
but with kindred words;
experimentation was refreshingly inconclusive;
I fell in love without a voice
and learned about the great repression.
My part in all of those lives
is ineffaceable.

Barely a decade ago
and already I stare into space.
Enough.
Life is fair and the present is fine;
the present
is superior
for it fathers all conjecture.

Label that time:
"before the pause",
and leave the desk
unlocked.
Manna
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Location: Where clouds go to die

Post by Manna »

Oh boy, let’s do some work-shopping. I don’t know you, and if I’m too hard on you, you’re always free to tell me to piss off or to just ignore me. It’s your poem, and my own writing hardly gives me any credential to critique another. That being said…
Ocean-envious of the sixteen-year-olds
streaming coolly onto campus
on a mid-week morning,
but why envy?
I am to them as a reptile is
to a sobering amphibian.
I suppose it must be the manifest memory
conferred unconsciously
in the Morse code of their steps:
There’s a lot here that is confusing. Right off, I don’t know what “Ocean-envious” means. My first thought was that the ocean was envious. I’d never considered the ocean as a body of envy, so that was interesting, but it didn’t work with the rest of what you said here. Then I thought maybe you mean there is envy as grand as the ocean.

I don’t know what a reptile means to a sobering amphibian, so this comparison to what “I” am to the sixteen-year-olds, I don’t know. Could be that an amphibian is sleek while a reptile is crusty & scaly? Why sobering? It may be too far away, or it may be that I’m not the greatest reader. It could have something to do with the ocean you mention above, but then the rest of the poem doesn't keep that thread.

The last three lines of this stanza are really good, though I do wonder if using Morse code to describe a clickity-clackity sound is already a bit used, but at least you're also using itto convey a message, so you might get away with it.
when I was their age I met new peers
who saw not with eyes,
but with kindred words;
experimentation was refreshingly inconclusive;
I fell in love without a voice
and learned about the great repression.
My part in all of those lives
is ineffaceable.
I think the transition between these two stanzas can be made more subtly. You’ve told us that it’s a “manifest memory,” so now you can tell us that memory without saying, “here’s the memory,” which is a loose translation of “when I was their age.” I say that, and then I ask myself, would I get that this is his memory without something to tell me? Is this a collective memory? I think it would work better if it were a collective memory.

What would you think of taking this stanza out of first person? Not sure without seeing it, but this might be stronger if you focus on the memory itself without being so personally narrative. Maybe you could move it away from perfect sentence syntax, as memories exist in this imperfect way, this partial and disjointed scenery of a mind.
Barely a decade ago
and already I stare into space.
Enough.
Life is fair and the present is fine;
the present
is superior
for it fathers all conjecture.
I like the first two lines here. Sounds like you’re already starting to feel old. When you say “Life is fair and the present is fine;” I take that to mean life isn’t fair and the present isn’t fine.

I have no idea what this last line is about. Is conjecture the best word for what you’re saying? I don’t know because I don’t know what you’re saying. It sounds to me like you’re saying that you’re trying to fool yourself into thinking you’re glad you’re not a teenager anymore. You’re “glad” you’re, what, 26(?) and that you can reach some conclusion or consensus. (by yourself?) Umm, ok. Is that different from being 16?
Label that time:
"before the pause",
and leave the desk
unlocked.
What desk? Was there a desk? What was that about? You’re an English teacher at a high school? Why is the comma outside the quote mark?
Alan Alda
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Post by Alan Alda »

Adjectives can be your friends, but they can also be your enemies.

The Pause

Ocean-envious of the sixteen-year-olds
streaming coolly onto campus
on a mid-week morning,
but why envy?
I am to them as a reptile is
to a sobering amphibian.
I suppose it must be the manifest memory
conferred unconsciously
in the Morse code of their steps:

"Ocean-envious" makes no sense.
Why is "mid-week" important?
Why are you telling us they "envy" (twice!)
Show, don't tell.
"manifest memory"//"sobering" amphibian. Not good.
"Morse code of their steps:" Decent phrase.

when I was their age I met new peers
who saw not with eyes,
but with kindred words;
experimentation was refreshingly inconclusive;
I fell in love without a voice
and learned about the great repression.
My part in all of those lives
is ineffaceable.

The 'negative' statement about "eyes" does not work. I'd eliminate it.
You don't seem to pay much attention to sonics. Also the multiple, multi-syllabic words are painfully over-used. In one line you have:
"experimentation" (6) "refreshingly" (4) "inconclusive" (4)

Barely a decade ago
and already I stare into space.
Enough.
Life is fair and the present is fine;
the present
is superior
for it fathers all conjecture.

Your first line above is incomplete. Again, you are telling your readers ("Life is fair...") Show, don't Tell. This reads like bellybutton waxing.
Label that time:
"before the pause",
and leave the desk
unlocked.
A totally anti-climatic end, since the poem is too obtuse and unclear as to support what you are trying to leave your readers with.

What poets besides Leonard do you read??

Laurie, you are being just a little pedantic, don't you think?
Nope. You're the one that linked one and not the other.

Okay, off to my brain-dead job...

Laurie
I simply cannot see where there is to get to. Plath
Even despots have access to 'Welcome' mats. Me
Desperation is easily confused with enthusiasm. Me
Huck
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 1:55 pm

Post by Huck »

hello Manna, thanks for taking the time to read through and critique! however, i have to say - dude, trust your instinct!

first stanza: of course you don't know what "ocean-envious" means. i made it up. it means whatever you want it to mean, or whatever you think it should mean. i like your interpretations - the ocean as a body of envy, envy as grand as the ocean - and if that's what you imagined, then go with it. the Morse code doesn't necessarily refer to the actual sound, but it can if you want. also, consider this: reptiles evolved from amphibians, by coming onto dry land.

the memory is "manifest" because it is right in front of me, and in the second stanza i go on to describe some experiences i associate with the sight of these carefree students on a stroll. it is not "memory" as a singular noun object. anyway, if i were saying "here's the memory", i would already have said that by using the colon.

"life is fair and the present is fine" - well maybe i am trying to kid myself here. maybe i really mean it. again, it is up to you, and, as i said, you should trust your instinct. "the present is superior for it fathers all conjecture" = all speculation and rumination occurs in the present, so only the present can be trusted, rather than the effects of nostalgia. i don't think my having to spell that out is a fault of the poem... "What desk? Was there a desk? What was that about?" - good questions! why must everything be explained? maybe it is a real desk, maybe it is a metaphor, a symbol. make your own mind up. as for the comma outside the quote - i am not writing in American English!
Huck
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 1:55 pm

Post by Huck »

hi Laurie. ok...

"makes no sense"? this is poetry, not mathematics. just take some time to think about it, and make up your own mind.

"mid-week" is no more or less important than any of the other words. it is, however, setting the scene in a small way, and adds to the cadence.

the sixteen-year-olds are not envious; i am envious, and i don't agree that "envious" and "envy" counts as repetition, especially as the former is part of a compound.
"manifest memory"//"sobering" amphibian. Not good.
- why? because you don't like it? that's your taste.
The 'negative' statement about "eyes" does not work. I'd eliminate it.
- again, why?

"experimentation was refreshingly inconclusive" - perhaps you haven't considered that the experimentation refers also to the line itself.

"Barely a decade ago and already I stare into space." - not perfect English, no, but still acceptable and very common. consider it a shift in tone? and i'm only telling how i feel about the experience. you are welcome, if not encouraged, to disagree with the feeling.

if the poem is too obtuse and unclear, how do you even know what i am trying to leave my readers with, if anything?

poets i read: Frank O'Hara, Susan Howe, Trakl, Jim Carroll, Bukowski, a little Thom Gunn... you? Plath, obviously.
Alan Alda
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Post by Alan Alda »

Huck~

You're too enamored with your own reflection.

This is not worth my time or energy.

Yes. I like Plath, amongst others.

regards,
Laurie
I simply cannot see where there is to get to. Plath
Even despots have access to 'Welcome' mats. Me
Desperation is easily confused with enthusiasm. Me
Huck
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 1:55 pm

Post by Huck »

You're too enamored with your own reflection.
you could say the same about anyone who has ever written a poem. criticise the piece, if you will, but my self is incidental. besides, you can't even be sure it's entirely autobiographical.

so it was worth your time and energy to dissect my poem, but not now that i've addressed your criticisms? don't get me wrong; i trust that you know what you're talking about and are passionate about it, but i am confident that the poem is technically sound, leaving other concerns a matter of taste. i'm sorry you don't like the poem, but i doubt it's the first to leave you unimpressed!

thanks,
Huck
Manna
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Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 6:51 am
Location: Where clouds go to die

Post by Manna »

Alan Alda wrote:Huck~

You're too enamored with your own reflection.

This is not worth my time or energy.
I agree. My current fav right now is Kooser.
As a poet, you have to say something. Yes, it is a requirement. At least for me. Word salad is not poetry.
Huck
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 1:55 pm

Post by Huck »

Manna wrote:
Alan Alda wrote:Huck~

You're too enamored with your own reflection.

This is not worth my time or energy.
I agree. My current fav right now is Kooser.
As a poet, you have to say something. Yes, it is a requirement. At least for me. Word salad is not poetry.
the poem does say something, but by your own admission you don't understand it.

salad on its own is indeed unsatisfying. i'm just sorry all my other ingredients are unpalatable to you.

i'll check out Kooser.
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