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I thoroughly enjoyed our discussion of the poem. Unfortunately, I can't start another because I am recovering from a quadruple bypass. It seems I had absolutely no blood flow in my heart-- just gallons and gallons of red wine pumping through, keeping me alive. Best holiday wishes to all!

This was a shocking post to read, Sohbet. Thank G~d for the wine. Despite your terrifyingly close call, I'm pleased to see that you were at least able to come here to comment on your current circumstances. May you return to good health soon. As soon as I saw your name, I thought, "Well, look who's here after so long !" The poem[s] can wait. I'm glad to know you're okay. Rest, exercise, eat right, do whatever you need to do for you, and return to us when you're able. G~d be with you, Sohbet.

Love,
Elizabeth

This must be a poetic joke because people who drink a lot of wine never get coronary occlusion just cirrhosis of the liver. Anyway I hope it is, because bypass, while it can add 15 years to your life, is no easy operation.

Hi Lightning ~

It's certainly no joke, and Sohbet's comment was merely an offhand remark, being light about what was/is certainly a terrifying, at least very scarey, and heavy situation. And, of course, drinking wine is no panacea for heart disease. He could easily be a wine drinker and still have a serious heart attack, with blockage to that extent. If he were a cirrhosis-level, wine drinker, he may not have been so inclined to come here and engage as effectively as he has. Then, again, I could be wrong about that. At any rate, he was definitely serious.

~ Elizabeth

To continue with the collective uncounscious symbolism in poetry.

"You Will Whip Down The 405
To San Diego
To Pick Up An Acorn
For Someone's Proverb
And So On And So Forth."

clic here - theory of the acorn - clic here

I can not help but to think that this is what he has done, still do.







And. This is another subject, but. Why this curious and mysterious man could not have been interested, at least at some times in his life, to jungian psychology? He went into so many things, like scientology, for example. But maybe it is just a coincidence between two deep men with some similitudes in the character to explore or experiment the depth of the inner self.

I have read a portrait of some CGJ's attitudes in a passage of the autobio. of Carl Jung that are the exactly (almost) the same attitudes of the man in Bird on the Wire and/or The Stranger Song.

Freudian and Jungian and other forms of psychology have been out of fashion with intellectuals in Northern America since the mid-sixties. Eastern mysticism took over, especially for countercultural artists as Cohen was back then. Scientology is a polyglot Eastern religion/ psychology which Cohen did not give himself to as much as Buddhism. It is best to try to understand him as he is not as what you impose on him. Freud and Jung had big ideas which were supposed to explain everything. Eventually the bubble burst and it was found to contain gas. It is presumptuous to interpret an artist's work on what you consider to be a higher level than what he wrote it on. Would be kinder to the author not to place yourself above him and just try to understand what he is saying.

Hello Lightning,

I was surprised, and confused and finally amused to be put at such a height while I was just casually discussing about something I like and nothing else. Really.

But now I have to answer about what I was suppose to do in my previous message, according to you. I will try to do it briefly.

I am living in North America so I am aware of what is going on about ideology here, and also that Cohen just dropped in and out of Scientology, very quickly, as I read it in an interview about the expression "to go clear" that he used in Famous Blue Raincoat. I also read in this interview that he looked into many things, that is why, I think, maybe he could have been interested in jugian theory, that is not so out of fashion, as far as I can see.

As for the fashion and the intellectuals, I never was a fashion victim especially in the field of ideas, and I am always aware that intellectual fashion is just another term for dogma, the contrary of free spirit, so I am not impress, never was, by the intellectuals submitted to old or new dogma. I mean, people can beleive want they want, if they are doing something else, also, I beleive what they are doing not what they are saying. I'm not convinced anyway that Cohen was submitted to any theory, buddhism or something else. I think that was always "just a Joseph looking for a manger" "who is reaching for the sky just to surrender", like he sang in The Stranger Song. This is a very personal idea, I do not ask you to share it.

As for Freud and Jung being out of date like old yoghurts, I could go into a discussion, especially about them thinking they have the Truth, but it would be very long, very boring, and, I think, really not appropriate, here. Consequently, I just say that I have a different point of view about the question.

The collective uncouncious symbols are part of ordinary life like breathing for a human being, so I really do not see how it could be presomptuous to refer to them. When we are dreaming, we are plundge in the uncouscious and these symbols, it is natural, and I think, not something extraordinary or unusual for poetry also.

I feel like if, for some reason, but I do not get why, I shocked you with this post, and maybe other readers as well. That was not my intention.

"If I, if I have been unkind,
I hope that you can just let it go by."

This looks like a depressingly stoic way of looking at poetry/Leonard's work.
It doesn't work for me. In fact it makes me feel ill.
I couldn't get past the first page; but that is a comment on me, not the topic.

???? So it must be a good idea for the rational multitude !
One day,,,maybe I will grow rational too.

I still have so much to learn.
Enjoy.

MatbbgJ

let's see
70 words – 11 lines – your longest stanza contains 60 syllables (I don’t really know I just guessed) your last 9 (I did count that one)

~~

hey Mat – guess who I saw last night?
… Coleman Barks who was reciting some of Rumi’s poems at a “remembering Rumi” event. WOW is all I can say, really a big Wow. He said that he had a stroke about a year and half ago and had lost his voice for a while but he certainly was in fine form last night.

Coleman Barks!
Lucky you, Cate. I would love to get that opportunity.
Diane will be a little jealous, perhaps

Bad luck about the stroke; but there you go, we are all aging pots of clay.

mat.

When I saw your post Mat, I thought you and Cate were getting married. But it's worse than that! Cate and Coleman Barks. I am a deep shade of green. However, Wow, yes, it's marvellous that you got to see him Cate:-)! It sounds like an excellent event and it's good to know he is still "touring" from time to time.

Hi Diane

It really was a great experience though he was only on for about 45 minutes. I hope that he makes his way over to the U.K. for you.
I found that actually listening to the poems was a very different experience then just reading them. I've ordered a couple of c.d.'s

anyway, I just noticed that 5 years ago Tchocalatl was talking a lot of sense, as usual.

and I am always aware that intellectual fashion is just another term for dogma, the contrary of free spirit, so I am not impress, never was, by

That makes perfect sense to me, Tchoc!
even 5 years on
and dogmas and fashions have no doubt changed;
but still your statement makes everlasting sense.

go the Tchoc!

There is something about an open mind...

Mat.

Cate wrote: I found that actually listening to the poems was a very different experience then just reading them. I've ordered a couple of c.d.'s

Hi Cate:-) Your post reminded me to listen again to my Rumi cd (called "I Want Burning", marvellous title!). Even cd listening is rather different to reading, isn't it.This morning I was playing the disc in the car without paying attention but somehow caught the lines,

Here’s the new rule: break the wineglass.
And fall toward the glassblower’s breath.


I was speechless (thoughtless) at such a fine line. The cherry on the cake of all his wine lines.

complete poem:

There’s an old rule that drunks have to argue
and get into fights.
The lover is just as bad. He falls down a hole.
But down in that hole he finds something shining,
worth more than any amount of money or power.

Last night the moon came
dropping its clothes in the street.
I took it as a sign to start singing.
Falling up into the bowl of sky.
The bowl brakes. Everywhere is falling everywhere.
Nothing else to do.

Here’s the new rule: break the wineglass.
And fall toward the glassblower’s breath.

---------------

Tchoc was such a star wasn't she, Mat. And undoubtedly still shining.

Wow, that's beautiful Diane.
I can see how that would leave you breathless. It's almost startling.
also

Last night the moon came
dropping its clothes in the street.