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As a leading left wing pinko I heartily agree with Byron!

JTS (Now can we get back to Muffin's and leave politics to the B movie stars and simpletons)

Hi Byron~

I really appreciated your well reasoned and positive response. To begin from a position of idealism and examine both sides carefully is always constructive. I always like to begin from the 'middle' and draw in what is helpful, thought provoking and, hopefully, liberating.
Too much of anything one-sided is never good for sincere seekers of Truth.
As one who was not born or raised in this country, I came with an open mind and great appreciation for the ideals on which it was founded. The system still works; despite its being beleagured lately by anti-theist 'constitutional revisionists'.
To be able to read opposing newspapers that could be trusted for honesty and professional jounalism would be ideal also. (Perhaps our British friends are not as apprised of the preponderence of the scandals in that regard here). I share many socially 'liberal' views: e.g. anti-capital punishment; the dire need for a National Health service. When even tiny European countries can support such systems, it does seem strange that America will not. So much of the extremes of perceived greed are actually the result of fear! If you lose your job here, you lose your medical insurance. If you then become ill from the stress, where do you go? Vicious cycle, as you can see. I'm sure this will be remedied in the near future; my faith in the ultimate generosity of the American people will not fade. Freedom from fear is true freedom.

Anyway, with my cheeky prod at our 'whinging academics', I think we have raised some good points for contemplation. (What the "plagiarist" stone-throw was about, from way 'off base'...no idea. )
Always good to hear everything from all sides. A good dose of Bill O'Reilly with a dash of Dennis Miller is a good 'pick-me-up'-- can't hurt.

All's Well that Ends Well,
~Makera

Byron,

You are always pointing out news articles/stories that denigrate the United States. And Lizzytysh is always trashing her own country. Yawn. What else is new? You and Lizzytysh are the ones who are "repetitive". So get a life. And while you're at it get a masculine avatar.

"jmflash
Joined: 16 Aug 2003
Posts: 20
Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 3:21 pm Post subject: The True Poet
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If you have ever said the following: “I am a poet,”
Then you are not a poet.
And this is unconditionally, categorically undeniable. "

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"Kush
Joined: 08 Jul 2002
Posts: 383
Location: NY
Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 10:33 pm Post subject:
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Too much Zen ain't good for you.
And this is unconditionally, undeniably true. "

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"Makera
Joined: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 173
Location: The Other Side
Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2003 8:01 am Post subject:
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Too much NPR definitely, absolutely, ain't good for you.

(Translation for Brits: National Public Radio = Left wing whinging 'academics' on government funding) "

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"Interesting," plagiaristic commentary and conclusion. " ~ Elizabeth

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"(What the "plagiarist" stone-throw was about, from way 'off base'...no idea. ) " ~ Makera

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Interesting what some perceive as "way 'off base' stone-throw"ing, when both their hands are filled with rocks. "No idea " Amazing how confusion sets in

~ Elizabeth

Thank you for your "Pavlov" response, once again, Liz. Having taken the 'bait', you conveniently provided the comparisons for everyone to see: A 'play-on-words' subtley reminiscent of another's thought or expression, without duplication, is not (and never was) "plagiarism". If this were so, no rephrasing or paraphrasing, or even allusions to, any other known writing or work would ever be allowed!

By your 'definition', then, Abraham Lincoln's: "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt" was a 'plagiarism' of: "Even a fool is counted wise when he holds his peace; When he shuts his lips he is considered intelligent" Prov 17:28

(Then, what about JFK's word for word quote of Khalil Gibran, without attribution? )

"People in grass houses shouldn't stow thrones"
~Makera

PS A tip: Use a good dictionary and note the origins of the words you choose.

Hey, Skippy ~

Plagiarize: "To steal and pass off as one's own (the ideas or words of another) ~ to present as one's own an idea or product derived from an existing source."

Your punts continue to go offside, and Pavlov lost out. Took a while to decide whether to respond at all to the dross.

Shall return to the wisdom of a wise one: I have found it best just to ignore incivility.

~ Elizabeth

Hey Kush~

Did you know that anyone who now writes: "Too much [whatever + whatever adjectives] ain't good for you", is "plagiarizing" you? What a buzz, eh! Get it copyrighted/trademarked/registered quick, you'll make a fortune! (Careful, Jmflash might demand royalties on "categorically, undeniably", though)

~Makera

I happen to be quite at ease with my masculinity and certainly do not need another avatar to support it. In a similar 'vein' I do not feel the need to own and drive a big car. As my father used to say, "Big car....small ****"

Makera, thank you for your considered response to me, which is in the same spirit in which my effort was intended, and without any irony whatsoever, I had agreed beforehand and had aknowledged "all things good and wonderful about the USA." This point would seem to have been missed by others.
Byron 'sends his regards.'

Skippy ~

You, who know your grammar well, you must learn, learn........:

"-ism ~ act, practice, process; manner of action or behavior characteristic of a (specified) person or thing; adherence to a system or a class of principles; characteristic or peculiar feature or trait"

"-istic ~ of, or relating to, or characteristic of"

Subtle, yet germane....... difference .

When in doubt, try your own dictionary .

Thanks, of course, for your well-meaning, benevolent efforts to let me know how wrong I am .

My word choices remain my own....... for good reason .

~ Elizabeth

Hi Byron~

I think you may not be as cognizant, as one living here, of the fact that (due to the cultural persona) when Americans become idealogues, rigidly partisan in their views, they cannot handle debates on the actual issues when reasoned facts are required to support a position. It is then that emotional, reactive dramatics are employed with characteristic attacks on the person, rather than the topic in question. Name-calling, non sequiturs and various hair-splitting, tortured-logic methods are used to 'hit back' because they connot gain advantage any other way against a fact, or facts. This is what reasonable people in this country deal with all the time. Perhaps it is similar in England, but I can assure you, nothing like they 'play' it here!
For instance , Byron, if I suggested that you note the 'origins' of words you choose, would you understand that to mean 'any part of speach' of a word, or the actual 'origin' as stated?

Many years ago, when my mother was the treasurer of a large public company in Australia, she dealt with many American businessmen (often through the merchant banks her company used). The realization she, and all her Oz colleagues, came to was that Americans didn't deal well with disagreement, i.e. friendly, reasoned argument. The surprised conclusion they came to was, that Americans wanted so much to be 'liked' that if you disagreed with them they believed you 'disliked' them. And these were educated, mature executives! Australians don't take disagreement so personally, it's more a 'sport' you could say. Oz is a very sporty nation, after all.

Warmest Regards to u & yours,

~Makera

Makera. I sit in front of my screen and read and re-read, your discourse about your experiences and those of your mother and her colleagues. I need time to let what you have written 'sink in' and also to wait for the inevitable proof of your considered explanation, which must surely be on its way, if what you write has body and substance. I do not doubt your own life experience for one moment. However, it is so profound a picture of matters we have all visited in the pages of this forum, that time has to be the best tool for myself and any other readers, for whom your words have touched, and time will lend itself to a better appreciation of your views.
At first blush I have a dozen questions to ask of your piece, however, they would seem to be trite and shallow and not worthy of the discussion at this stage.
Thank you for helping to let some of the scales fall from my eyes. I have spent a long time believing that we are all entering into our various discussions, views, ideas and arguments on a level playing field. From what you say, it seems that some participants refuse to play the game by the rules if they can't use their bat and ball.
Byron 'sends his regards.'
I hope you don't end up at the end of a witch hunt for expressing such views.

what on earth has any of this got to do with muffins?

Its called conversation and some of us enjoy a good old chat.
Byron 'sends his chattering regards.'

I already know that there is a chat room, thank very much, before you jump down my screen. Whichever one of you wants to have a go.

The above discussion is too important an issue to leave to the chat room, because it affects/effects us all.

W.....A.......s have you voted yet?

Actually Makera I find you quite rigid in your views quite smug and patronising in a lot of your posts.

People do not have to play the games by your rules but I bet you stamp your feet and take away the ball if they don't.