leonardcohenforum.com

You/it may be right, but it's not what I'm hearing. I also don't trust the armed-services filter on the reporting. If the economy is an impact driving people toward enlistment, d'ya suppose it could enter into the economy being down [keeping it there]?

Dear Lizzy,

You/it may be right, but it's not what I'm hearing.

That because you're listening to NPR.



M

lizzytysh wrote:~ they are thinking of reinstituting the 'draft' over here, just to 'adequately' man all the 'fires.' Persistent comparing to Viet Nam is on the rise.

If they do start to draft, I will be drafted. I am the type of person they want dead... I hate the fucking bastards and they hate me. I already have a red flag for sending evil letters to Bush...
I would not go to fight if drafted... Sorry Dad.
I couldn't kill a man. Well, I suppose I would learn, but I will be skipping that class...
Canada... I already have enough good reasons to move there.

Aha! You're so right, Moonlight ~ and this morning, I made three, separate contribution pledges. They do try to filter the truth through the smokescreens. Amazing that more articles are being written on, interviews being done with military families regarding feeling 'ripped off' and lied to regarding their come-home times, and that support for the war within the military is declining; and that the walls of barracks of Reserves/National Guardsmen bear signs that read, "One weekend a month, my ass." Also, that the sons of real-life people I know and have heard of, are not re-enlisting.....they're "getting out, while the getting is good." I can honestly say I don't trust what I hear on the mainline, corporate-owned radio stations. Give me NPR any day.

I understand your position, Epurcelly.

Dear Bee ~

That is the most comprehensive [yet, still incomplete, per your notation] list of atrocities I've ever seen. I cannot help but pause for serious thought on them. Should we consider the European countries 'the bad guy' or governments/people in general 'the bad guy'? I'm at a loss when I read your overwhelming list.

With the U.S. so oft-perceived as the 'role model' for 'civilization,' however, I can't help but feel that "two wrongs don't make a right" and that the standard we 'set'/adhere to should be on a higher plane, particularly when economic gains are at the base. I have trouble with killing, no matter from which direction and for what reason. As one who carries spiders outside for safe release, mass and indiscriminate, civilian/'collateral damage' [a term we haven't heard in awhile] deaths set very hard with me.

Love,
Elizabeth

Ciao Epurcelly,

I thought you were 68 years old, my friend. How can you be drafted? There are rocking chairs in Canada waiting for you.




Vesuvius

Dear Lizzy
there where tons of justifications for the war on iraq. from the illegal weapons that Saddam had, like 600 mile silkworm missle prototypes, plus plans to start an atomic program, and all types of chemical programs that he had in the past (like mustard gas), and all types of new systems and substances he was investigating. and we are hardly at the end game in finding hidden weapons in the rather large iraqi dessert, or transported into neighboring syria. all his generals thought he had wmd's. so that is still a very open question.

he was also a totally sadistic and murdererous dictator who killed some 1,000,000 of his countrymen. i think action on that single fact, and it is a fact, , justify action against this sadist, that the war protestors ever protested against.


somebody had to take action against a madman who had attacked two neighboring countries. iran and kuwait in the last 15 years. and was a threat to the entire region, if armed with nuclear weapons. a pseudo-democratic iraq

the attack on iraq was in the interest of all the neighboring countries. iran. kuwait. saudi arabia. and of course the united states as well as israel. but then who would want to defend Israel, right? we should just forget what europe did to them? bodies everywhere, bodies everywhere, bodies everywhere. right ?
Lizzy, Iam not sayin europe is de "bad guy"- juss has a very heavy bloody past, for which usa is not to be blamed
it is bad there in iraq, it gives pain to think of one life lost, cruelty and loss, but it is a fight

"Europe has a very heavy bloody past."
Perhaps I could quote a truism about experience?
"Experience is what one accumulates when one has lived longer than those around you?"
Or, in other words, one has had much more time to do more things and been able to make far more mistakes, because of the amount of actions and decisions, that have occured in a longer time scale than other peoples.'
A 200 year old country has not had enough time to make as many mistakes as 2, 3, and 4 thousand year old countries.
How can one compare a 5 year old child's view of the world with a 75 year old person's experiences?
Given enough time, even a young country will stumble and fall morally, in its dealings with its own people and its neighbours.
We all live in glass houses and must be aware that if one of us starts to throw stones, we will all be showered with broken glass and broken promises and broken bones.
Before taking the splinters out of my eye, try taking the splinters out of your own first. Or, let him without sin...................

I note that San Francisco is mentioned in the forum. A spanish 'name.' One could ask that the name be changed because of the terrible evil done by the spanish people to others. In the name of religion. Torture, maiming, mutilation, public burnings, etc., etc., the list goes on. Done in the name of the saints. My point is that we who are alive now are not responsible for what your ancestors did. My generation cannot be held up as the custodians of all that was evil in Europe. If one child is evil and naughty in a classroom, do you punish them all? "That class of kids are troublemakers!" Please don't lump millions of decent people into the cauldron of filth, which a few have been spawned from.
Even the Rainbow Nation has a history of 'necklasses.'
Evil exists because a handful of men and women grab power and instill terror into those around them. It is an abnormal extension of the school bully. Politics, unfortunately, has to be the art of choosing which particular bullies you prefer to deal with at the moment. That is the Real World.
Forums like this one allow free and frank discussions, with exchanges of views and opinions. Our generation is so, so lucky to be able to do this. I know that these words are being read all around the globe and I also know that your words will appear before all of us shortly, whoever you are, and whatever you write.
Please be more thankful that we each have the ability and opportunity to express our accumulated knowledge to one and all. But please, don't go blasting away at innocents abroad, who happen to understand the english language and are fortunate enough to afford a computer.

As a citizen of Israel, I Know all about justifications for war. But I have never heard how do you justify muffins.

Byron 's writing is a flimsy disguise for bloody common-sense.
I feel the need to speak in this never-ending thread, and will, but not tonight. It's getting late and I have work tomorrow.
Andrew.

Ciao Bryan,

Yes, you do not want to blame the generation of today for the past. But I think we EU are hypocritical on the blame Americans for everything. There is much hate on this board for the Americans. (Do not tell me it is only Bush or American government. In America the people are the government.) You see it in many many posts. Even there is one person who will not go to the Event only because it is in America. (He is Greek). That is STUPID.

Also, only glass houses are told by Eu's when the shoe is on the other foot.
In the mind of EU's the only innocents abroad are themselves.

Vesuvius

Ves. how trule those werds are, evning today.

muffins are so "last year", nowadays politicans, shakers and movers, talk only of sausages. I vote this thread dead.

It has been a very long time since the light of the Sun was able to illuminate the place where you sausage should be.