i don't get it

[Geoffrey]

what did leonard mean when he said he had seen the future and it was murder? that doesn't make sense. saying that you can see into the future defies logic. and even if you were psychic and could see what's lying ahead, what's so special about prophesying murder? that is something that has always been with us - since cain killed abel. love will also always be with us, so why only predict a bad thing?

[burningviolin]

I thought it was to do with poets being seen to be prophets, that they are ahead of the non poets with their thoughts and can see things happening before us. I also remember in interviews that he wrote it in L.A. (please someone ((Tom Sakic??!...anyone...)) correct me if I'm way off here) where he said something along the lines that everything was crumbling at the time, even the city itself is on actually shaky ground with earthquakes, and everything could collapse at any moment. Also that he himself was going into a breakdown and was seeing a tough future ahead.

[leonardmtl]

Another perspective on these words relates to Leonard's connection to Buddhism. Its first noble truth is that our world has varying degress of discomfort, ranging from a sense of irritation and something missing, to torture, poverty and murder. Leonard outlined this perspective in the May, 2009 issue of Shambahala Sun. His deep depression at the time he wrote the song clearly affected how severely negative and chaotic he saw the future at the far end of the Buddhist truth.

Leonard from Montreal

[B4real]

The following are excerpts from Diamonds in the line about "The Future" and Leonard's conception of it including 'murder'-

Backstage Interview July 15th, 1993
"I started the song same time as I started "Democracy". All those songs were occasioned by the collapse of the Berlin Wall. You had to affirm the rejoicing of people but I did have a clear sense of this was gonna produce a lot of suffering. And unfortunately, that was borne out."
Interviewer : "...and 'I've seen the Future it is murder', a bleak picture but you always… sort of, the redemptive properties of love seem to fiddle themselves in there somewhere."
"I mean this is all they're giving us this murder, I mean this is what we're fed, 'I've seen the future baby, it is murder'. Well of course that's a colloquial expression 'How hard it is ? - It is murder', 'What was the traffic like? - It was murder'. But it is murder. And that is the great unspoken secret that politicians hardly even address, it's that you can't go outside anymore."
Interviewer : "That perspective I was mentioning (..)You always seemed to hold out love as the redemptive possibility in all this; do you still feel that way as strongly as you always have?"
"I've always known it on a personal level it is true that…. in that song I say 'When they say Repent, I wonder that they meant', the sad thing is that those redemptive possibilities, those redemptive mechanisms have become obscure and lost. All the religions have them. The whole notion of the resurrection is an idea of a return, of a renewal, unless people understanding can grasp the idea that they can renew their lives then we're in a very sorry situation. Those mechanisms exist, they're available, and everywhere from the Catholic church to AA (Alcoholics Anonymous)."

Interview "Bob Harriss Show" 26/05/93
"I guess the song was begun like most of my songs. Just kinda scraping the bottom of the barrel. I never thought I stood in front of a buffet table and had a lot of things to write about, you know. It's just a kind of growing that you feel. A kind of itch that you can't scratch. Somehow you're just moving around in your mind, not in a very graceful way in a very awkward way, trying to centre yourself around something. At that time the Berlin Wall had just come down, when I wrote that, when I started to write it. And I don't know why but I had this… I had a hurt feeling about that, and a kind of gloomy feeling about that. We were rejoicing and of course one rejoiced and one saw the images of the wall coming down. And one thought that families would be reunited and country could continue on its own way. A split being healed is always some kind of attractive idea. But I don't know why I had a gloomy idea about it. People always said I have a gloomy idea about everything. I say that's true. I also have a very gloomy idea about democracy in the east, in the Soviet Union and in Eastern Europe and in fact one of the tracks, one of the verses I discarded, among the 50 or 60 I discarded for "Democracy" was:" It ain't comin' to us European-style - Concentration camp behind the smile - It ain't comin' from the east - With its temporary feast - As Count Dracula comes strolling the aisle". I just didn't think that these Eastern European Communist Republics were going to burst into these life affirming democracies that everybody hoped for. And for some odd reason I felt that when central authority, no matter how severe it is, breaks down, when the cat's away, the mice will play, and boys will be boys... And usually, historically that means massacre. I'm not happy to say that my prophecies have borne out. But those were the feelings that were attended at the beginning. So I never really know where the song is going to go until I write it verse by verse. The reason it takes so long to write is that I have to write each verse perfectly, and make it perfect. 'Cause it's only in the writing that you can discard the alibis and the slogans and the easy positions. So The Future is the song that the future cries, the future drew out of me. It's not politics, it's a kind of psycho-geo-politics that the future draws these exclamations out of me, out of my heart."

I guess that Leonard can only see what he can see good or bad

[Geoffrey]

some interesting reading here. many thanks to leonardmtl and B4real.

burningviolin wrote:
>I thought it was to do with poets being seen to be prophets, that they are ahead of the non poets with their thoughts and can see things happening before us.

well, wouldn't that defy the laws of physics? would also bring into question why leonard had to change show dates due to sudden back pain, or why the red rocks concert was postponed due to bad weather. would also be very boring for him knowing what people were going to say before they said it; he would have to just stand there drumming his fingers until they had finished.

[burningviolin]

some interesting reading here. many thanks to leonardmtl and B4real.

burningviolin wrote:
>I thought it was to do with poets being seen to be prophets, that they are ahead of the non poets with their thoughts and can see things happening before us.

well, wouldn't that defy the laws of physics? would also bring into question why leonard had to change show dates due to sudden back pain, or why the red rocks concert was postponed due to bad weather. would also be very boring for him knowing what people were going to say before they said it; he would have to just stand there drumming his fingers until they had finished.

Well I dunno do I! All that propheting or whatever the word is seemed to work for those biblical dudes...Isiah etc, wonder did they get callouses due to all that finger drumming...

[Lilifyre]

Poetic license. You either get it or you don't. If it has to be spelled out to you, then you don't get it and probably never will. Just consider the old adage, "Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to relive it."

Lili

[Geoffrey]

Lilifyre wrote:
>You either get it or you don't. If it has to be spelled out to you, then you don't get it and probably never will.

people believe the favourite will probably win the horse-race, but the unlikely occurs every day. so spell it out and let's see.

[seadove]

Leonard wrote tons of words then later accumulate them into sentences and then to verses. There is no end to what he means in this or that other song. We can go on and on about practically all the songs that he wrote and we can take them anywhere we want to: toward him being psycic, or insane or toward being super intelligent or astoundingly genius.

In his "gypsy" song, when he sang " a ghost climbs on the table, etc..." did he really see a ghost? In his Hallelujah song was he there when David observed Bat Sheva bathing on the roof? How did he know that Abraham was carrying an axe made of gold?

So we are talking about a man who has a creative, almost angelic, imigination and a unique skill of putting up words to form a ringing tone of verse. You know how it is when you write a poem, (I wrote quite a few myself), you search for the right words but then it does not rhyme. So you change about the words until you get a creative melody out of that but then you'll find yourself writing differant stories, some of them will be very atrochious whoppers in the end.

[Andrew McGeever]

Dear Geoffrey,
I haven't posted messages for some time. I've read the thread you started .
There are issues which should be discussed, if you wish.
Yours, as aye,
Andrew.

[Geoffrey]

Andrew McGeever wrote:
>Dear Geoffrey, I haven't posted messages for some time. I've read the thread you started. There are issues which should be discussed, if you wish.

Hello Andrew. What a lovely surprise. Neither have I posted very many messages for a while. Tend to be sporadic and far between. Hope you are well.

Yes, I wish to discuss issues, but must quickly add that I am not very good at it. If you are a patient person, and can tolerate a personality that tends to focus on aspects of a message that do not necessarily conform to mainstream thinking, then let us by all means embark upon a discussion. I try to come here at least once a day, even if only briefly, but cannot always manage it.

[beokii]

See my topic here viewtopic.php?f=5&t=22222

[Andrew McGeever]

Dear Beokii,
I read your topic and was struck by some lines:
"Leonard Cohen has crypted lyrics. All based on one secret".
You then go on to quote a single line from Leonard's song, "Democracy", and announce,"it means Emotion is the difference between thinking and the truth" (sic).
I disagree. If your teacher asked you "what is 2 plus 3 ?" then that is the thinking process.
If, after some thought, you answered "23", you would be wrong,and find out the truth from your teacher who would say "5".
It's only now that the "emotion" kicks in; after the thinking and after the truth: the shame of getting the wrong answer.
I don't intend to be unkind , but my meaning of "difference" may be different to yours.
With respect,
Andrew.

[beokii]

Thank you for your reply.

I understand your point, it shows me that i have to be more clear about what i said.

after you said the answer you don't stop with thinking.
it's important to know what you think after you heard you where wrong.
If you say you where wrong, then you might be right.

It also depends on how your interprate the question.

If you don't know the answer you cant be wrong to yourself, but you can to others. You can make a mistake to say to yourself you are sure to know the right answer.

Also math is our own creation. We define whats right and whats is wrong.

[beokii]

What do you think when the teacher says you are wrong?
You aren't wrong, so it's clear your teacher or you are wrong about that.

We can't observe math with our perception.