Joni casts off Leonard discourteously

lightning · Post by **lightning** » Tue May 10, 2005 2:15 am

For those who haven't been following the "Brits Go See this Guy" thread, here is the link to the recent NY Magazine article where Joni Mitchell discusses her influences and discards Leonard Cohen as someone she "used to like" until... Any comments?

http://www.newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/art ... pop/11888/

Tri-me · Post by **Tri-me** » Tue May 10, 2005 2:59 am

Were you similarly skeptical about the folk scene in New York in the late sixties?
No. I briefly liked Leonard Cohen, though once I read Camus and Lorca I started to realize that he had taken a lot of lines from those books, which was disappointing to me.

sounds like sour grapes to me, this is a very ungracious thing to say.

Is she accusing him of plagerism????

Joni, Joni I am very dissappointed.

What was the joke on This Hour has 22 Minutes (satiracle news show) dishing those who have achieved fame and fortune a Canadian past time!!

Paula · Post by **Paula** » Tue May 10, 2005 10:01 am

Plagerism is something we all do most days. As John Lennon said nothing you can say that hasn't been said. So he nicked a line here and there he made the words his own and over the years people have and will continue to nick Leonard's lines. Nothing is totally original. She also has a pop at Bob Dylan. What did Joni Mitchell write that had any great substance "Big Yellow Taxi" wow.

tomsakic · Post by **tomsakic** » Tue May 10, 2005 11:30 am

No. I briefly liked Leonard Cohen, though once I read Camus and Lorca I started to realize that he had taken a lot of lines from those books, which was disappointing to me. Dylan was an influence even though initially I was a detractor. I thought he was a Woody Guthrie copycat. It’s in my stars to invent; I was born on Madame Curie’s birthday. I have this need for originals, for innovation. That’s why I like Charlie Parker.

Isn't that enought? What to say about the person whose songs I admired so much, beside that's she's obviously stupid. This seems like she's trying to defend her position in pantheon going against Dylan and Cohen. She ought to learn from them: never attack your comrades; always keep their side. Leonard always spoke about her and Dylan very highly; calling her "Bethoveen of pop" and Dylan "Picasso of rock'n'roll"; and Dylan never said nothing against Leonard (and her I think)...
This is very sad.

jurica · Post by **jurica** » Tue May 10, 2005 1:31 pm

i'm sorry but i went to the Brtis Go See... first and posted there. i don't feel like copy pasting back here, but i'll no longer go offtopic on that thread...

margaret · Post by **margaret** » Tue May 10, 2005 3:20 pm

after reading Joni's comments I immediately thought "Oooooooh. Who rattled her cage!" Of course every artist is influenced by someone or some others who came earlier, but most have their own unique style and are not just copyists!

lightning · Post by **lightning** » Tue May 10, 2005 4:15 pm

They usually accuse Mitchell of ripping off "Suzanne" for "Chelsea Morning" as in "the sun poured down like honey" and other images I can't think of right now. But they were friends and lovers in the days of peace and love.

Makera · Post by **Makera** » Tue May 10, 2005 5:17 pm

Fascinating attitude... reminds me of the derogatory way Keith Richards (yeah, 'Dead Man Walking' of the Rolling Stones) referred to Chuck Berry...

"Don't it always seem to go..."

that the inferior disparage their superiors

Tchocolatl · Post by **Tchocolatl** » Wed May 11, 2005 5:23 am

Boy it is long, this time.

I mean, to read the Lizzytysh's usual "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" (I guess L sniks this from an well known author).

If JM was bon the same day as Maria Sklodowska, which is on November 7, 1867, she really does not make her age. And after they will say cigarettes are bad for the health, or maybe she is just prentending to smoke for the picture.

Anybody here who has read Lorca and Camus lift a hand up, please.

Oups! Hard to type with just one hand.

OK I do not have read everything by them. And maybe I have forgot a little. But. Really, I don't remimber having seing them in LC's things, of course, she may talk (in FGL's case) about Take this W. but what he did with it is not plag. it is W. For wonderful. A tribute.

lizzytysh · Post by **lizzytysh** » Wed May 11, 2005 3:44 pm

~ Exactly ~

" . . . she may talk (in FGL's case) about Take this W. but what he did with it is not plag. it is W. For wonderful. A tribute."

Oh, yes.....if I understand you correctly, Tchocolatl ~ my quoting of the "Hell hath...." was never intended to be anything other than a quoting ~ certainly not something I ever intended to take on as my own. It sures does have a lot of applications, though. I'll read this Joni article when I have time.

jemtreadwell · Post by **jemtreadwell** » Thu May 12, 2005 4:31 am

A quote from Leonard in Sounds, 1971:

SOME OF JACQUES BREL'S EARLY MATERIAL IS VERY CLOSE TO YOURS?

I hadn't heard him when I started to write songs but I think many people are indebted to him. I don't remember any early influences, I think I stole from everybody I ever heard.

The interview is at http://www.leonardcohenfiles.com/sounds.html .

lightning · Post by **lightning** » Thu May 12, 2005 4:56 am

More like early Brel in performance style (intense, brooding guy hunched over a guitar) than similar in music or lyrics. I can't see how that observation arose. But to abosrb influence is not the same as to steal.

lizzytysh · Post by **lizzytysh** » Thu May 12, 2005 5:14 am

I see Leonard's wry humour and wit through hyperbole in that statement. He, of course, is going to self-deprecate before others take a shot at him. He certainly is being very up-front with the fact that he certainly has drawn from others material, by [at the same time] saying that he may not be able to name all the names, but that they have certainly been there right along, and that he's been impacted by and drawn from them, to all kinds of degrees, even to the extent that it goes way beyond 'influence.' He makes his point well, by juxtaposing the idea of "influence" with that of stealing. Of course, we know that he has not stolen from everyone he's ever heard, but I can sure hear him saying that in an interview. Likewise, he did not steal from Lorca.

Morning Star · Post by **Morning Star** » Thu May 12, 2005 7:38 am

We all utilize each other's language and song. Some gossip here, a chant there. If Mr. Cohen was 'influenced' by others, so what. I have been by him. It is the nature of life to be so. 'Dance Me To The End Of Love' was played at my father's funeral. Should I not be 'influenced' by that? It is all about sharing. The music and stories of the elders were always passed down generation to generation. It kept societies bound.

bruna · Post by **bruna** » Tue May 17, 2005 10:17 am

Joni Mitchell is out in this point.
It is a little tragic, when she considers herself to be a pure original. It is a kind of megalomania, I think.
I don´t know the only one poet or songwriter, who created his opuses without any cultural influence. Even fantasy is just like a puzzle, we just combine little pieces of reality into some new structure.
When I go through this forum, I can see how different we are in certain things and how equal at the same time - especially feelings are often similar.
If Leonard Cohen was inspired with Lorca and Camus, it is comprehensible and above all IT IS GOOD.
On the other hand if someone wants to be a splendid solitaire I can only say: poor lady, you have lost your way..."