Retreats on Mount Baldy

[johnny7moons]

A friend of mine's considering going to Mount Baldy to train with the spiritual marines for a few weeks. Any of you folks ever spent any time on retreat up there? If so, just exactly how tough was the experience?

[Tchocolatl]

Do you expect that Leonard Cohen himself answer this question?

Monastic zen lifes are usually as rough as military lifes. If no first hand experiences come to you go, I suggest that you pace the net, that you go to them, I find some info about that, but I can't - of course - know for sure if it was all true or not. But. You know what they say : if the mountain does not got to you go to the mountain.

[Tri-me]

Has your friend been meditating with a Zen group?

[johnny7moons]

No, but he's been meditating in a different Buddhist tradition for years. He's written to the people on Mount Baldy and they've agreed that he can come. He's just a little, erm, trepidatious.

[Tri-me]

I practice with the Shambhala community.

A couple of years ago I did a silent retreat at our center, functional talking only. We all knew each other and it was very difficult, for some more than others, to not talk to each other. There was no penalty if you were caught having a chat. We meditated all morning, from approximately 8 AM to noon. We had a break after lunch which we ate at our gomdens in silence, all meals were eaten at our gomdens in silence. At the break we did an assigned chore to maintain the center.

Time flew by very fast, it became very relaxing. I have not meditated with the Zen group, but from what I have heard they are more rigid than the Shambalians are. I would hope that your friend could meet with a Meditation Instructor who would understand that he is a beginner and "coach" him through.

Hope your friend has a great experience. Om Mani Padme Hum

[Tchocolatl]

So you did not find it. I guess. I found a paper written by a guy who went there and come back because the discipline there was too rough for him. (There are gossips about Roshi and Cohen in the paper also, he went there during the time Cohen was a monk). Not just another nice relaxation camp according to him. He was a practionner of buddhism and zen, but not at this extreme he said. Poor sweetheart.

[johnny7moons]

Tri-me - Shambhala is Chogyam Trungpa's gang, right? I've done some silent retreats too, vipassana-style - including a couple of quite long and rigorous ones - but I hear the regime on Mount Baldy is something entirely different. For example, I read one interview (on this site somewhere) where an interviewer went up the mountain to talk to Cohen during an intensive retreat, during which the retreatants apparently weren't allowed any sleep at all for a week straight. You're expected to participate in everything on the schedule, apparently, or you're politely but firmly asked to leave. "The judgements are severe." I think quite a few people leave with their tales between their legs, like the guy in the story Tchoc found.

[lizzytysh]

Hi Johnny ~

Thanks for giving context to Leonard's comment that it is structured to break a 20-year-old. What an understatement. Severe. I'll say.

~ Lizzy

[Tri-me]

You are right Johnny our the spritual leader now Sakyong Mipham, Chogyam Trungpa's son who is getting married this Saturday to Tseyang Palmo. They are expecting 1,100 people at the ceremony.

One of my favourite stories about Chogyam Trungpa is...
He was leading a workshop with advanced students. They were expected to dress in business type clothes during the week. He had the participants woken up at 3:30 AM, they were told to be ready to see him in the shrine room. They gathered and he said to them, remember the importance of shamata or something like that. The participants were told they could go bac to bed.

[thoughtcat]

Coming in a bit late here but for the record, there is an old Sunday Times "Day in the life" interview with Leonard from when he was a practicing monk on Marie's site, here which gives some details of the Mt Baldy routine.

Also Mount Baldy has a website at http://www.mbzc.org/ which describes the general routine.

For me personally I could put up with almost anything Mt Baldy threw at me except (a) the sleep deprivation and (b) the sort of situation Leonard talks about in another interview where he says, "It's a deep sense of doubt that drives you into the meditation hall, and often it's a self you discover and can't stand, which is why you drop it."

TC

[Red Poppy]

Is it possible to book a retreat in the future?

[Tri-me]

WOW that is quite the schedule!!! I would assume if a person had not done any previous meditation that this would be very difficult to do. When we did a Weekthün here we had a two hour break in the afternoon.

My other teacher Master Yap said, "Taking a retreat in a cave is easy, taking retreat in the world is more difficult" At least when you are attending a retreat you are among other people with a similar view or similar goals. In the world we face a carnicopia of people with different views and goals.

[koan]

I spent a lot of time at bodhi manda zen center which is the sister to Mt. Baldy (in N.M.)and during the intensive seshin's and other longer series of seshin's leonard came down there ( in N.M.) since they are silent retreats I spent a week with leonard and never exchanged a word with him except excuse me ( that was after the silent part). kind of sad story for a big fan, but I felt like I understood in a whole new way where some of his songs come from like Anthem, after those retreats. Anyway I'd be more than happy to talk about zen life. In short it is like spiritual boot camp and may be most appropriate for men in their 20's. Not everyone has the drive to sit for 10-14 hours a day (in 30-40 min. sections with walking meditation in between (so you can still walk)). I can't imagine doing it now that I'm older and out of shape(and I'm only 35 ) . But I can't say enough about how wonderful and valuable the experience was. I'm also happy I escaped as well. Many of the most devoted are there because of the roshi, and this went for Leonard as well as far as I can tell. For the newer students their interactions with Roshi are tightly controlled, you will only see him for the most part during Teisho (teaching-talk-lecture) and for very brief times during a long meditation as you try to manifest your koan (pronounced ko-an) since hes over 100 now his time and energy are more limited. I suppose it cheapens the experience to swap zen meditation stories, there is an unspoken rule to not kiss and tell as it were, but hopefully I'm anonymous and removed enough from it to make it O.K. If it make someone curious enough to go down and put a robe on and do a week long or month long retreat than i don't see anything wrong with that. There are affiliates of Rinzai-Ji, the roshi's tradition all over the world.

[Tri-me]

It is nice to make contact with a sangha member. I consider all who study Buddhism sangha. I took refuge vows in 2004 Tri-me (tree may) is my refuge name and Bodhisattva vows this past spring. I belong to the Mukpo family, Shambhala, (what happens when one takes Bodhisattva vows).

I have never participated in a month long retreat, due to financial reasons I am self-employed so I would need to save up enough to cover expenses plus pay for the retreat. I did a retreat for a week, in my apartment, after New Years this year. It was great. I am thinking to do a month long retreat next year. I would have to design a strict schedule and stick to it, functional talking only.

We have a small Zen group here; the thing about them is they do not talk after sitting. The Buddhist group does a study. Studying with a group and having a meditation instructor makes it easier to dive into (for me).

I am studying Hinayana and I believe I belong to the Vaibhashika (particularist school); they believe space has a function where the Sauntrantikas (the Sutra followers) believe space is a non thing. The debate is what follows the last moment of a candle. I say an increase in space the Santrantikas say that is it the last moment is the end.
Something like that. I use very simple terms.

This past summer the Nitartha Institute was here, I studied Mind in Its World. It was so fantastic to start at the absolute beginning of mind, before big mind and little mind, just mind. They will be back here in two years I will need all that time to review all that was taught.

How auspicious to be on a retreat with Leonard Cohen. I cannot help but think that you saw him in a light that only a person in that situation can see a person, raw and transparent. There are no words, clothes etc to cloud the true nature of the person. I would think seeing him, or anybody for that matter, in a retreat is a very special encounter. I would never think to ask about anything that happened to another person in a retreat. It is very private; I would go so far as to be tempted to ask Jarkko to delete a post that had this content. A person is welcome to share their experience, but another person's no no no.



Nice to meet you Koan
Om Mani Padme Hum

[koan]

I tink it would be hard to do a retreat by oneself if only its so hard to discipline oneself. With all the other people your sort of swept along in a way it would be hard to do by oneself, it still seems like it could be very valuable but definately different. What I meant about talking about the experience is just talking about my experience, i find it fascinating to recall and it helps bring it closer to my present experience but in reality in zen they don't seem big on reflecting on the past because it doesn't get you anywhere except farther from your present experience. Imagine sitting hour on end and trying to recall all the wonderful states of conciousness you once had, nothing is more frustrating, because your still sitting there wishing to be somewhere else, I suppose the endless hours eventually break you down until you give up and when you give up thats when a wonderful thing might happen (my cynical side must admit that sensory and sleep deprivation also have something to do with it) and of course it can't just be the idea of giving up on a certain line of thinking but actually giving up. Anyway, i think there are ways to do retreats relatively cheap, like working at the place or finding a low budget place that doesn't have a live teacher. but yeah its hard if you have to keep paying rent during that time, another reason to do it when your young and are used to couch surfing or what not.

Thanks for writing back I have endless more topics to talk about with respect to buddhism and meditation, but i will say most groups aren't too into reflecting and Leonard's old tradition is one of them. "No sinking (thinking)" was one of Roshi's favorite sayings. but.......I would think "no sinking" that pretty much sums it up. the koans ( and I picked my name here tongue in cheek) are meant to create confusion and thwart the logical mind from trying to reason its way out. Zen and buddhism is just filled with paradoxes and the more you think about them and try to explain them, the more confused one gets which is why its about getting back to a direct experience of the world. And the more I talk about it and go down different dead ends trying to explain it the more chance i have of ultimately giving and just experiencing. But the more i spew, the more crap I leave out there for other people to have to make sense of and decide whether its accurate or not, that is one reason to do the silent retreats so everyones spew doesn't cloud your mind. Anyway good luck. Write back though I would say your silent retreat should also include no e-mail. Your not just practicing being mute your practicing relaxing the whole verbal part of your mind