leonardcohenforum.com

It is indeed a strange world. Mel Gibson has landed himself in it, very deeply.

http://movies.msn.com/movies/article.as ... 3&GT1=7701

Rob.

My access to this link is blocked via WebBlocker. I haven't read the 4 pages cited here, and am concerned about how I'm going to feel once I do. Yesterday, however, I tore out this brief [Associated Press generated] article from a newspaper, when I first saw it. Late-night TV is having a heyday with it, as are other stand-up comics. Many in the Jewish community are understandably shocked, angry, and distrustful. To say 'disappointed' is an understatement. "Passion of the Christ" detractors are feeling validated. I'm wondering how Leonard feels.

In an even more bizarre world, this could be alleged a 'publicity stunt' ~ "Of course I'm not anti-Semitic. I've just helped produce a film on Leonard Cohen, a Jewish person whom I have long and immensely admired." With there being talk of boycotting of Gibson's films, I hope "I'm Your Man" doesn't suffer from it, though it certainly could. Still, the 'Jewish community' might be led toward it because it is about a man who's Jewish and it's very favourable toward him. In any case, this is not the kind of publicity Leonard would want.

Jokes are being made about the "Apocalyptic" TV-film project that has now been cancelled, and that this describes the end of his career, with some key figures in the industry advocating boycotting Gibson. Some are saying, "Yes, he was very drunk; but alcohol is a truth serum. For these kinds of things to come out, they had to be down there in the first place." Much is being made of his father being a Holocaust deny-er ... and, outside of this context, Mel's at least once having said that his father has never lied to him a day in his life .

It's already clear that there will be people boycotting any films by him. Simply because he has so long lauded Leonard, I would hope that Mel would contact Leonard directly to apologize. If for no other reason, just because...

Gibson apologizes for words to police

Anti-Semitic remarks
appear in a supposed
copy of arrest report.

LOS ANGELES -- Mel Gibson issued a lengthy statement Saturday apologizing for saying "despicable" things to sheriff's deputies whenhe was arrested for investigation of driving under the influence of alcohol.

"I acted like a person completely out of control when I was arrested and said things that I do not believe to be true and which are despicable," the actor-director said.

The entertainment Web site TMZ posted what it said were four pages from the arrest report, which quoted Gibson as launching an expletive-laden "barrage of anti-Semitic remarks" after he was stopped early Friday in Malibu.

According to the report, in ddition to threatening a deputy and trying to escape, Gibson said, "The Jews are responsible for all the wars in the world," and asked the officer, "Are you a Jew?"

The Los Angeles Times reported that the sheriff's department's civilian oversight office will investigate whether authorities gve Gibson preferential treatment and tried to cover up his alleged behavior.

Sheriff's spokesman Steve Whitmore said deputies clocked Gibson doing 87 mph in a 45 mph zone.

A breath test indicated Gibson's blood-alcohol level was 0.12 percent, Whitmore said. The legal limit in California is 0.08 percent.

One assessment was that, given Gibson's weight, this would be the equivalent of 5 drinks within an hour, with the normal, processing rate for the body being 1 drink per hour. Still, it would depend on other factors, like if he had eaten, etc.

I was caught by the name of the writer, of this brief article, being a woman named Sandy Cohen. Not because of any suspicions of relatedness to Leonard, but just because of the irony.

I've always really, really, really liked Mel Gibson... but this is unfathomable. He's clearly an alcoholic and needs treatment. But, this... what is this all about?? Is it as simplistic as it seems it could be? Does Leonard take an 'understanding,' higher view, in terms of the foibles of being human and extremely drunk?

There couldn't possibly be a worse time for such comments to have been made, which unfortunately lends to their credibility in terms of Mel's belief... i.e. why are such thoughts so near the top of his mind? With Mel's long-standing support of Leonard, I had thought there'd be more discussion here about it... still, we know that with prejudice, there are nearly always 'exceptions.'

Okay, enough.


~ Lizzy

Alcohol can do many things; make you think you are desirable/attractive when you are not; make you think you look cool when dancing; even think walking that high, narrow wall is a good idea. I have never known alcohol turn a non-racist into a racist.
Rob.

My sentiments exactly, Rob... the sentiments I'm trying to rationalize, so as to get past. Unsuccessfully.

~ Lizzy

You got it in one Rob. Excellently put.

Okay... naturally ... I'm trying to look at this in maybe a not-so-obvious way. Yes, it will be somewhat 'sympathetic' to Gibson... as far as that's possible, given these outrage-us circumstances.

I can't help but wonder how bizarre it would/must be to be raised in a family where the primary, power figure [father] DENIES the Holocaust! A horrendous event against humanity and Jewish people, in particular, well documented in a MULTITUDE of NUMEROUS ways!! So, he's at odds with his schoolmates, but can't say anything [most bigots don't hesitate... and his own father didn't]. With people still alive and suffering from the ordeal, how terrible to be looking at them through fractured lenses.

I have no idea what Mel's childhood was like, but it had to be at least 'conflictual' in this regard, being given these horrendous messages all his life... and become even moreso for him, as the years went on... and conflicting evidence mounted. Sometimes, people try to resolve those deep-seated conflicts by exploring, intensely exploring, the very thing they feel so conflicted about. This would seem to be feasible, given the films Gibson has made and the one he was reportedly working on... and his deep admiration for Leonard, whose positions and lyrics FLY in the face of Holocaust denial.

The other alternative is simply diabolical... that Mel has been doing some deep-seated lying about his beliefs and is using the film industry to perpetrate them upon the public, in various, insundrious ways.

Yet, given drunkenness for a deeply-convicted person [I'm not going to say that the merging of the conflict and the films has driven him into alcoholism; yet, those old tapes would be continually subjected to static and scratching noises, as he made his films and could at least lend to a desire to have a drink and drown out the noise; and, if old, childhood, mental tapes were going to 'play back' at a time of high stress, with a DUI on top of the weight of alcoholism [has denial also been an issue?], and I didn't hear the follow-up/outcome on "Find out, next, why Mel's wife was not with him at the club... ," but alcohol could certainly lend to/be a trigger to that]. Had there been discussion of the Israel-Lebanon-Hezbollah conflict earlier in the evening? Was someone he knew killed in the conflict? Was he as outraged as the rest of the world at the murder of the 34 children + the remainder of the total of 50 being mostly women? Are old tapes

This is NOT an excusing of Mel ~ AT ALL ~ but I'm trying to square the Mel Gibson I've been 'perceiving' with what happened the other night. Why would someone who denies the Holocaust... and believes the Jews have been the cause of all the wars in the world [that almost sounds to me like a direct quote from a bigoted father], devote so much time, energy, and money to making films about Jews. One might say that Mel has grown into and become the bigoted father; yet, most bigots seem to choose to not invest so much as he has into the 'recipient' of their bigotry. In light of this 'new information,' one might say that Mel is obsessed with Jewishness and Jewish issues... hence, a 'red flag' of sorts regarding the deep-seated conflict regarding the deeply-imbedded messages from his father. "My father never lied to me a day in his life" ~ WoW. That's a tough one... the highly-respected father capable[?] of such gross deception?? Yes. But to that child/now adult, that's the making of not just conflict between what you hear from within the family and what you see in the outside world; but what a parent is supposed to be like in terms of their truthfulness to a child, and what it would seem obvious yours wasn't.

All of this [to me], I could see leading to a 'plea' to the world that 'I really don't FEEL this way about Jewish people [the Holocaust]!' Who knows but what his life hasn't moved toward being an exercise in conquering his [old, father-driven] demons, via direct confrontation, by making films about the very people who have been oppressed and slaughtered.

These are just some thoughts, as I try to understand this bizarre 'revelation.' I'm not trying to defend Mel... I'm trying to understand. I know some will say, "What's to understand!?! He's a lying bigot!!" Still... there seems to be more layers to this than are immediately apparent.

I'm afraid when I come back, all hell will have broken loose regarding these comments. That's not my intent... and if Mel truly holds the views that these abominable comments clearly suggest, then I feel the same as others about Mel being a bigoted racist who has been lying to the world. It just feels like there is more to it than that.

~ Lizzy

Gibson said, "The Jews are responsible for all the wars in the world," and asked the officer, "Are you a Jew?"

I'd been wondering what it was he'd said. And now I know. What a bloody stupid thing to believe!

But he is clearly racist, imo, because, as the above posts point out, you don't make comments when you are drunk that are not actually what you are feeling/thinking, however deeply buried.

He's just trying to salvage his career with all this apology stuff. I don't believe in it.

But Lizzie is right - attitudes fed to you from infancy are VERY difficult to overcome, even if logic, reason, and inclination are all pointing you away from such inculcated attitudes.

So maybe I shouldn't be so hard on the poor little rich boy.

Yes, I agree that Mel could be trying to salvage his career... or he could be genuinely sorry. I don't know. I need to know more to make a 'better' guess. I also need to at least read that 4 pages published somewhere on the Net. You're right about the forces of infancy and childhood. I wonder was his mother in agreement with his father, or was there discord in the home about it, with the father spewing hatred, and his mother supporting love, with Mel caught in the middle, struggling to form the 'right' opinion, without feeling disloyalty to either parent, and to still be in tune with what the vast majority of the world knows to be true.

This is no small measure of conflict, external or internal... it's not like his father thinking sports is better than dance, or his mother thinking dance is better than sports. This is such a profound issue that it could rock a young person's world as he struggles to establish his own identity.

We can't blame everything on our childhoods, yet we can't discount the imprinting that comes with them.

I need to see "The Passion of Christ," as well. I suspect there will be many more checking it [and other of Mel's films] out on video, trying to support or refute the opinion that seems to be quickly forming about Mel Gibson.

Meanwhile, more innocent people continue to die in Lebanon, Israel, Iraq, and Afghanistan... as well as Africa and many other places.

~ Lizzy

Don't get me started on that, Lizzie! I've already managed to upset people in two other forums on that topic!

He opened his mouth, filth came out and now he's attempting to close the stable door, but the horse has well and truly bolted.

Yesterday Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez compared Israel's bombing campaign in Lebanon to Nazi war crimes:

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L04656541.htm

So my question is: if Gibson's remarks were beyond the pale, are Chavez' remarks acceptable?

It is not okay to target a whole people -- e.g. "the Jews" -- for the actions of their government, but Chavez is not talking about "the Jews", he's talking about Israel, and specifically the recent Lebanon campaign which does have disturbing echoes of Blitzkrieg -- but Chavez is speaking to the converted -- a group of Arab leaders.

Meanwhile Mel Gibson, a Hollywood actor, makes outrageously racist statements and will likely pay a heavy price. How many people out there in America, Australia, and around the world have no more political intelligence than a drunk Mel Gibson?

If Gibson is crucified over these remarks, how many of these people will say "Look -- this proves he was right."

It seems to me Gibson's amazingly ignorant outburst is a sign that there are dangerous sentiments brewing.

Montreal writer David Himmelstein has some interesting things to say about the causes of anti-Semitism in the context of wars on terrorism and other unending quagmires:

http://www.counterpunch.org/himmelstein08022006.html

Unlike Lizzy, I don't think Gibson's outburst was a publicity stunt. More likely it was simply a bad blunder. Was he on his way home from a party? What were people talking about at that party? The wars in Lebanon and Iraq, would be my guess. And maybe in his remarks to the cops, he was drunkenly repeating what he had said, or been hearing, at the party?

Who decided to publicize this incident? And why?

Again, I'm only guessing but clearly there are people who would want to make an example. In this case, a high-profile example. And a drunken, bad-mouthing, anti-Semitic Mel Gilbson is much better than an articulate critic of Zionism or US foreign policy.

So they take down Mel Gibson and make a news story out of his dumb outburst. Even though his remarks were not intended to reach the public, but they did. And yes, this does happen to movie stars who shoplift, resist arrest, etc. etc. -- their peccadilloes are reported. In the context of the present escalation in the Middle East, all the publicity around this incident seems like just another attempt at quashing real, intelligent dissent.

I'm no apologist for Mel Gibson - and i hated The Passion of the Christ. Also, I would bbe sympathetic to much of the pressure under which Israelis live. I would have contact with the Israeli peace movement. I say all this as a background to the fact that being anti-Israeli is not the same as being anti-Jewish.
The notion of the religious state is anathema to me - whether it's the Israeli State; the Arab states that are Muslim states in fact or wherever.
We had for many years a special mention of the Catholic Church in our (Irish ) constitution.
Britain still has the Queen as head of the Anglican Church.
Gibson may simply be mouthing, he may be a racist, he may not.
In my experience of observing drunks they DO often say things they might not say in sobriety. Gentle people become vicious, angry people become maudlin and so on.
What LC thinks of all this is his own business and hardly worth wondering about here.

I don't think people should over-react to this. I have been in situations reported in the press with such distortions that the actual events are completely unrecognisable.

And LC's opinion? Well, we know it, don't we. I can't remember his exact words, but many years ago he said that it takes a Jew to be a real anti-semite.

Lizzy wrote

Meanwhile, more innocent people continue to die in Lebanon, Israel, Iraq, and Afghanistan... as well as Africa and many other places.

[color=brown]...so, in conclusion, Mel was right, wasn't he?, the Jews were responsible for the wars! I cannot believe the hypocrisy of these posts - waaay too much! You people are completely lost and you don't know, where to find yourselves, together with Mel and Leonard Cohen, who pretends to be Zen Buddhist, while his own people are being slaughtered like sacrificial lambs in the religious wars of Muslim dominance.
Shame on you a, you blinded fools !!![/color]